What would you call !

[rugbyslave]

Team A kicks in general play into team B Goal area, a player from team B with one foot in touch-in-goal and the other in the in-goal has the ball bounce off his shin forward. One of his team mates ahead of the original player then plays the ball and kicks it out on the 22m line.
My first reaction would be ball is dead, 22m Drop out or scrum where team A kicked the ball.
Player B ahead of team mate who has accidently kicked the ball and penalty on 5m line for ahead of kicker.

 

[Browner]

22 drop out.

A player who is TIG only has to touch the ball to make it dead.

 

[winchesterref]

Looking for law sorry, re-evaluating my original opinion as I typed

22.11 (a) - touches the TIG line or the DBL, or touches anything or anyone beyond those lines the ball becomes dead.........

but it his leg in the in goal area beyond those lines?

22.9 says the player has to have picked it up and taken it over the DBL whilst ball was in motion (with 1 foot over the DBL and 1 foot in in goal)

My original response was:

Did the ball cross the line for TIG?
Yes and it hit his leg outside, then 22/scrum back
No and it hit his leg inside the FOP/in goal area - then ball not out

Bounced forwards off his knee, was the team mate of his who played the ball then accidentally offside when playing the ball?
Yes - scrum 5.
No it was deliberately offside and prevented an opposition playing the ball/scoring, penalise and consider PT if score was probable
No he was onside, L/O on 22.

 

[rugbyslave]

22 drop out.

A player who is TIG only has to touch the ball to make it dead.

would be option then ?

 

[Browner]

would be option then ?

If I'm entirely honest, during a match I'd give as i stated, but in part this is because the whole subject is so darned confusing and under pressure of making a decision that's what I'd give, hopefully players wouldnt know better, and even if one did he'd accept that I'm a volunteer trying my best.

I suspect over the next few hours you might get more lawfully correct advise from which I may learn also !

 

[The Fat]

Team A kicks in general play into team B Goal area, a player from team B with one foot in touch-in-goal and the other in the in-goal has the ball bounce off his shin forward. One of his team mates ahead of the original player then plays the ball and kicks it out on the 22m line.
My first reaction would be ball is dead, 22m Drop out or scrum where team A kicked the ball.
Player B ahead of team mate who has accidently kicked the ball and penalty on 5m line for ahead of kicker.

Great question.
Most people would say 22DO or scrum back but it would be easy to argue the case for offside with PK to attacking team on 5m.
Will chew this one over for a while.

 

[rugbyslave]

Looking for law sorry, re-evaluating my original opinion as I typed

22.11 (a) - touches the TIG line or the DBL, or touches anything or anyone beyond those lines the ball becomes dead.........

but it his leg in the in goal area beyond those lines?

22.9 says the player has to have picked it up and taken it over the DBL whilst ball was in motion (with 1 foot over the DBL and 1 foot in in goal)

My original response was:

Did the ball cross the line for TIG?
Yes and it hit his leg outside, then 22/scrum back
No and it hit his leg inside the FOP/in goal area - then ball not out

Bounced forwards off his knee, was the team mate of his who played the ball then accidentally offside when playing the ball?
Yes - scrum 5.
No it was deliberately offside and prevented an opposition playing the ball/scoring, penalise and consider PT if score was probable
No he was onside, L/O on 22.

Its seems the "definition" gets us out of the second scenario, lets hear what the wise men come up with !

 

[ChrisR]

This gets tricky. First blush I'd say: 22 or scrum back. Ball striking a player in touch is in touch . Player with one foot in touch is in touch. However, player in touch can play the ball in the field of play and it's not in touch.

So, second blush I'd ask: Did the player play the ball or did the ball strike the player? Does it matter?

OK, need more time.

 

[ddjamo]

explain how and why the player in goal had his foot TIG and how the kick occurred.

just give us the info leading up to the clearing kick please.

 

[rugbyslave]

We know that if the player who has the ball comes off his shin had been one foot Touch-in-goal , it would have been offside.(OFF THE SHIN IS AKICK)
In the definition of touch it says “A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline”.
Penalty attacking team (5m out from touch and 5m line).
Accidental -scrum at the same place.
I would like to think that dead ball line would be counted the same as touch-in goal line.

 

[TNT88]

Quite obviously an offside PK.

 

[Taff]

Quite obviously an offside PK.

Exactly. IMO the only questions are:

1. Whether it's an accidental offside or deliberate - I would suggest it was deliberate ie a PK; and
2. Where is the mark for the PK? I would say 5m out in line with where the offside player picked up the ball.

As the ball bounced off his shin (ie it was not gathered) while still in-goal, it wasn't kicked through (ie no 22DO / scrum back option) the ball was still live and deliberately picked up by an offside player. Ie a PK / scrum option.

If they opt for a scrum the mark is 5m out and 5m in. If they opt for the PK, it's 5m out but in line with where the hapless offside player offended.

 

[Browner]

Exactly. The only questions are:

1. Whether it's an accidental offside or deliberate - I would suggest it was deliberate ie a PK; and
2. Where is the mark for the PK? I would say 5m out in line with where the offside player picked up the ball.

If you judge as offside, AND you consider the offside intentional ie an offence under L10.2(a), then its likely to have prevented an attacker getting to the ball 1st....which if so must mean 22.17(b) automatically kicks in PT & (YC?) Rather than a mere 5m PK ?

 

[Taff]

If you judge as offside, AND you consider the offside intentional ie an offence under L10.2(a), then its likely to have prevented an attacker getting to the ball 1st....which if so must mean 22.17(b) automatically kicks in PT & (YC?) Rather than a mere 5m PK ?

The original player (ie the one who "shinned" the ball) would probably have got to the ball first.

Anyway, we're guessing who would have got to the ball first. Either way, IMO it is a PK (poss PT) offence and isn't a 22 drop out - which is what I think the question is looking for.

 

[Browner]

Quite obviously an offside PK.

. TAFF ..... Either way, IMO it is a PK (poss PT) offence and isn't a 22 drop out - which is what I think the question is looking for.

In this clip http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J-gdeAIjGfE

the actions of Yellow are deemed to have made the ball dead. Which seem to match/similar to the OP's shin'ing.example.

So 22DO seems the correct call .. my post #2.
Least i think Thats how 22.11(a) seems to be interpretated here.

 

[rugbyslave]

Ok so we now have confirmation that the dead ball line is the same as touch in goal !
http://www.sareferees.com/News/deadball-as-for-touchingoal/2830205/

 

[The Fat]

Good to see the George North try is specifically mentioned as it clears up the problem of a player who is in touch and on the ground with body covering an area including part of in-goal, the DBL and the area beyond the DBL, can still ground the ball for a try or touch down

 

[damo]

In this clip http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J-gdeAIjGfE

the actions of Yellow are deemed to have made the ball dead. Which seem to match/similar to the OP's shin'ing.example.

So 22DO seems the correct call .. my post #2.
Least i think Thats how 22.11(a) seems to be interpretated here.

I think the if the TMO was saying that the ball was out simply because Gold 10 was touching the dead ball line then he was wrong. If he was saying that the ball was out because Gold 10 was over the line and the ball had also crossed the line then he would have been correct (not sure that the ball had crossed the line myself, but it is close).

Ultimately though, it made no difference because regardless of whether the ball was dead due to being over the dead ball line or by being forced by Red it was still a 22m dropout. For the lawyers out there, it was strictly obiter dicta epper:

 

[OB..]

I think the if the TMO was saying that the ball was out simply because Gold 10 was touching the dead ball line then he was wrong. If he was saying that the ball was out because Gold 10 was over the line and the ball had also crossed the line then he would have been correct (not sure that the ball had crossed the line myself, but it is close).

Ultimately though, it made no difference because regardless of whether the ball was dead due to being over the dead ball line or by being forced by Red it was still a 22m dropout. For the lawyers out there, it was strictly obiter dicta epper:

Obiter dictumepper:epper:

 

[ChrisR]

After some thought I'm for 22 DO/scrum back.

Player with foot in touch is in touch, ball striking said player is in touch. 22 DO or scrum back. Simple application of Law. Anything else is a can of worms.