Who is the attacking team?

[Norfolk_Ref]

Hi,

Had a training event and someone stated that the definition of 'attacking' team is the team in the opposing teams half. This was in the context of an unplayable ball from a ruck going to an attacking team.

I decided team going forward is an easier way to do it

 

[OB..]

Hi,

Had a training event and someone stated that the definition of 'attacking' team is the team in the opposing teams half. This was in the context of an unplayable ball from a ruck going to an attacking team.

I decided team going forward is an easier way to do it

He was right, but that only matters if neither team was going forward.

[LAWS]Law 16.7 (a) A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable and a scrum is ordered.

The team that was moving forward immediately before the ball became unplayable in the ruck throws in the ball.
If neither team was moving forward, or if the referee cannot decide which team was moving forward before the ball became unplayable in the ruck, the team that was moving forward before the ruck began throws in the ball.
If neither team was moving forward, then the attacking team throws in the ball.[/LAWS](My emphasis)

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

As we move through criterion to criterion to determine who gets the put in we invariably end up with the attacking team.

Helpfully the LotG define it thus:-

[LAWS]Attacking team: The opponents of the defending team in whose half of the ground play is taking place.[/LAWS]

Which is really helpful but you've got to also learn:-


[LAWS]Defending team: The team in whose half of the ground play is taking place; their opponents are the attacking team.
[/LAWS]

Clear as mud!:biggrin:

The inhabitants of "let him up" city tend to view the attacking team as the team in possession.

It is perhaps easier to just determine one team was going forward and award it to them rather than have to try and sell the "attacking team" to all and sundry.

IME The easiest attacking team sell is the "who did it come off" to cause a lineout.

 

[Taff]

As OB points out, the chances of you even getting as far as having to decide which is the attacking side is slim. If a ruck becomes unplayable, you call a scrum. Throw in goes to (in a very specific order)

• The side going forward - failing that
• The side last going forward - failing even that
• The attacking side - ie the side in the opponents half.

 

[DrSTU]

I was there today and thought this got far too muddled and matt didn't understand what was being said. (for others, this came about after a presentation about the tackle.

Law 15.8

If the ball becomes unplayable at a tackle and there is doubt about which player did not conform to Law, the referee orders a scrum immediately with the throw-in by the team that was moving forward prior to the stoppage or, if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team.

I would doubt that you'll ever get a tackle where you can't decide who was moving forward. The attacking team definition is correct but it's nigh on useless in this situation.

Hi,

Had a training event and someone stated that the definition of 'attacking' team is the team in the opposing teams half. This was in the context of an unplayable ball from a ruck going to an attacking team.

I decided team going forward is an easier way to do it

 

[Taff]

I was there today and thought this got far too muddled and matt didn't understand what was being said. (for others, this came about after a presentation about the tackle.

The routine for an unplayable tackle is the same as far an unplayable ruck.

 

[DrSTU]

So what? I was letting people know how the topic came up.

The routine for an unplayable tackle is the same as far an unplayable ruck.

 

[Taff]

So what? I was letting people know how the topic came up.

No problem. I'm just pointing it out to people who (like your Mat) may be muddled.

 

[Dickie E]

I'm finding it hard to imagine any situation where one team or t'other wasn't going forward except perhaps at a lineout where ball goes to ground and a pile-up occurs.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I'm finding it hard to imagine any situation where one team or t'other wasn't going forward except perhaps at a lineout where ball goes to ground and a pile-up occurs.

The going forward bit applies only once the tackle has been completed. Going forwards/backwards when the ball carrier is still on his feet bears no relevance.

I can easily imagine (and do sometimes see) the ball carrier being hammered by a big tackle, stopped in his tracks, and they both go directly to ground. Neither is going forward, jacklers/cleaner-outers arrive and the tackle/ruck neither goes forwards nor backwards.

 

[The Fat]

The routine for an unplayable tackle is the same as far an unplayable ruck.

Not necessarily.
There are subtle differences. There is an extra option for the ref to consider with the ruck that he doesn't have with the tackle.

Law 20 Scrum
20.4 The team throwing the ball into the scrum
(a)
After an infringement, the team that did not cause the infringement throws in the ball.
(b)
Scrum after ruck. Refer to Law 16.7.
(c)
Scrum after maul. Refer to Law 17.6.
(d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

Law 15 Tackle
15.8 Doubt about failure to comply
If the ball becomes unplayable at a tackle and there is doubt about which player did not conform to Law, the referee orders a scrum immediately with the throw-in by the team that was moving forward prior to the stoppage or, if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team.




Law 16 Ruck
16.7 Unsuccessful end to a ruck
(a)
A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable and a scrum is ordered.
The team that was moving forward immediately before the ball became unplayable in the ruck throws in the ball.

If neither team was moving forward, or if the referee cannot decide which team was moving forward before the ball became unplayable in the ruck, the team that was moving forward before the ruck began throws in the ball.

If neither team was moving forward, then the attacking team throws in the ball.

 

[The Fat]

The going forward bit applies only once the tackle has been completed. Going forwards/backwards when the ball carrier is still on his feet bears no relevance.

I can easily imagine (and do sometimes see) the ball carrier being hammered by a big tackle, stopped in his tracks, and they both go directly to ground. Neither is going forward, jacklers/cleaner-outers arrive and the tackle/ruck neither goes forwards nor backwards.

The law states "moving forward prior to the stoppage". If a spindley winger had possession and ran across field and slightly towards his own line to try to open some space and then gets polaxed by a mad centre (let's call him Ma'a), then if there was doubt at the tackle as to which player did not conform to law, then the scrum feed would go to the tackler's team as they were moving forward "prior to the stoppage".

 

[Taff]

Not necessarily.
There are subtle differences. There is an extra option for the ref to consider with the ruck that he doesn't have with the tackle.

These differences must be so subtle that I can't see them.

Law 15 Tackle. 15.8 Doubt about failure to comply
If the ball becomes unplayable at a tackle and there is doubt about which player did not conform to Law, the referee orders a scrum immediately with the

• throw-in by the team that was moving forward prior to the stoppage or,
• if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team

.

Law 16 Ruck 16.7 Unsuccessful end to a ruck
(a) A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable and a scrum is ordered. The team that was

• moving forward immediately before the ball became unplayable in the ruck throws in the ball.
• If neither team was moving forward, ... the team that was moving forward before the ruck began throws in the ball.
• If neither team was moving forward, then the attacking team throws in the ball

 

[Account Deleted]

The routine for an unplayable tackle is the same as far an unplayable ruck.

That is clear from DrStu's post that you quote. With the slight difference in that the second option is missing from the tackle situation: Ie moving forward before the ruck is not replicated with moving forward before the tackle.

Effectively they are pretty much the same.