Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9
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menace
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And that's fair enough too and was just wondering if there were other reasons that escaped me. Although I think the SH could still figure it out themselves ...except at the elite level so it's probably more for them than for grassroots!:biggrin:
And any adverse issues trending from that approach?
Can someone clarify for the exact position of the hooker's feet...assuming that they are both on the ground before the ball is put in by the No9.
Also - am I right in saying that the No8 from each team must have his head engaged in the scrum BEFORE the call of Crouch. Simply binding on with arms with your head in the air is not OK?
Also - am I right in saying that the No8 from each team must have his head engaged in the scrum BEFORE the call of Crouch. Simply binding on with arms with your head in the air is not OK?
Correct
20.2 Front-row players’ positions
(c) Hooker in a position to hook. Until the ball is thrown in, the hooker must be in a position to hook the ball. The hookers must have both feet on the ground, with their weight firmly on at least one foot. A hooker’s foremost foot must not be in front of the foremost foot of that team’s props.
Sanction: Free Kick
"Foot up" is a FK offence; and I reckon we're going to see more of it as Hookers and now expected to .... errrr ... hook.
Correct again sir.
20.3(f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum .... must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement.
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It is physically possible to have both arms binding correctly but have your head up.
The #8 does not really bind on a lock's body, but on his hips/thighs, so the situation is not well defined, however it does not specify that he must have his head down.
this is my problem. I realise that No8 can be bound on if he has a full arm bind - which still allows him to have his head up, but was under the impression that the new laws of engagement for the scrum required the No8 to be "head in" - precisely to avoid any kind of hit (even if the team would end up with a FK against them for pushing before the balls was in). This was the information that I got through LSRFUR at a recent meeting but I may have miss-understood.
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Perhaps you need to check back with you society. It may be that by "head in" they merely meant he should be bound on properly. That has long been the case to prevent sling-shotting. I have heard nothing specific to the new procedure.
Browner
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Do you agree that now that the scrum shove can't happen on the engage, then whether the 8 binds with 'head in' prior to 'Set' matters not anymore. As long as he's bound in before the ball is released/fed , then that's all that matters - right? come to think of it, lack of head in bind can only weaken his teams shove , thereby advantaging his opposition, surely?
I see your logic, but the IRB made a specific bullet point of making sure that the 2nd Rows and No 8 were fully bound before the engagement.
buff
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The following has come from Rugby Quebec. The referee tells the No 9 to put in the ball("yes 9"). The ball to be put in straight and right away. There is also a reminder in the summary of the document that the 9 has to put the ball in immediately and down the middle of the scrum once the referee says "yes 9". Nothing on how loud, invitation/instruction or how much delay is acceptable. Our senior season has just finished, so they didn't use it. The college and university seasons have just started, and have implemented it. Sorry for the crappy formatting of this post. I don't seem to be able to fix it.
Referee tells N°9 to put in the ball ("yes 9")
Scrum half must immediately put ball into the scrum & down the middle of the scrum once ref says "Yes 9"
IThe ball to be put in straight and without delay
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This weekend I had both scrumhalves feeding the ball nose first with a spin. One was very much a newbie but the other clearly knew better. Then again, she also was indignant when I called feeding after the put in first hit the hooker's thigh.
All in all, it looks to help.
All in all, it looks to help.
My son is a scrum half. First league game of the season yesterday, society appointed ref, he told them that he doesn't agree withYes9 as it is like a red flag for the defending pack, and the scrum halves should judge for themselves when the scrum is stationary and stable, and put the ball in.
Which is what happened
Hmmm.
My advice to coaches and players this season is to anticipate this type of confusion and listen carefully to the pre match brief
Which is what happened
Hmmm.
My advice to coaches and players this season is to anticipate this type of confusion and listen carefully to the pre match brief
Lee Lifeson-Peart
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Doesn't agree with it but still says it or doesn't agree with it so doesn't say it?
winchesterref
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Doesn't help with the consistency from week to week does it! Is there a route for clubs to inform society officials about it so it can be pressed home a bit more firmly? I don't mean snitching...! But maybe that referee has only read this via email and not been to a meeting recently or something, maybe needs the ideas behind the changes discussed with them directly?
I don't really know how societies deal with referees not doing what is expected of them, any ideas?
I don't really know how societies deal with referees not doing what is expected of them, any ideas?
yes, society refs have feedback cards they should hand out. I don't know if this ref did (at my son' team I am just a spectator, not a coach) but my experience at age group level, oddly, is that very few indeed are given out. Refs must feel that they are really only for adult games.
BTW - my son reported that in general referee was 'tough' and 'fair' and 'reasonable'. I said he sounded great, my son reflected and agreed that, yes, he was. So this is not a moan about a ref, who actually had a good game. Just about the slight confusion that still seems to attach itself to the new sequence.
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Dixie
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Rich, you got some feedback on this, but given that you are just starting out I thought you could do with having it fleshed out a bit. Taff gave you chapter and verse on the hookers' foot. I imagine that your concern stems from the practice of hookers to form up with their striking foot ahead of their standing foot, to ensure that their hips are in the correct position to strike once the ball comes in. At lower and junior levels, many try to keep that foot in the channel when they set.
This practice is illegal. As the law states, the hooker cannot have his foot in the channel. Read it again, but don't get hung up on which prop's foot is where - just tell the hooker that he needs to withdraw that foot so that you have a clear channel. If he doesn't - wait for the put-in then FK the "foot up". Escalate to penalties after the second FK, and keep talking to him.
As to the #8's head, OB's advice is more precise than Taff's. There is no law that requires the #8 to insert his head at any time in any scrum. The only requiremetn is that he bind to a 2nd row with at least one arm, though two is permitted. You mjay be thinking of the Slingshot - a practice a few years ago whereby #8 would pull back his locks until the Engage call, and then drive them forward to increase the power of the "hit". As the "hit" has been depowered (ideally eliminated) this season, there is absolutely no need for this - so the prohibition on it remains in place, though Browner is right that tactically, there is no reason to do it any more. Old habits die hard, however.
Thanks Dixie for fleshing that one out for me. You must have been on the side lines as that's exactly what was going on;
absolutely - the match in question was actually an U14s match (I also coach U14s) and I noted that both hookers had a foot forward, in the channel. I did ping it for "foot up" even though their feet were on the ground on exactly the basis that you describe - as the channel was "blocked" before the ball went in. I then went on to explain to them that I needed a clear channel.
After the match one of the coaches "told me" that it was OK to put one foot in front of the other but that the heel of the front foot must not go past the toe of the other foot.... which I have to say I raised an eyebrow at as nowhere have I ever read this as a law....He is however our forwards' coach so wanted to get the definitive answer from you guys before I set him right!! :chair:
am seeking clarification from our "chapter" of the LSRFUR, but yes, again, I was looking at the slingshotting, which is obviously a waste of time now.
absolutely - the match in question was actually an U14s match (I also coach U14s) and I noted that both hookers had a foot forward, in the channel. I did ping it for "foot up" even though their feet were on the ground on exactly the basis that you describe - as the channel was "blocked" before the ball went in. I then went on to explain to them that I needed a clear channel.
After the match one of the coaches "told me" that it was OK to put one foot in front of the other but that the heel of the front foot must not go past the toe of the other foot.... which I have to say I raised an eyebrow at as nowhere have I ever read this as a law....He is however our forwards' coach so wanted to get the definitive answer from you guys before I set him right!! :chair:
am seeking clarification from our "chapter" of the LSRFUR, but yes, again, I was looking at the slingshotting, which is obviously a waste of time now.
I reckon No 8s still slingshot partly because as you say old habits die hard, partly because they like the feeling and partly because they feel that trying to shove the opposition props head up his arse gives them a psychological advantage.
I had the hooker feet thing in my game yesterday, Senior (mens) second division in the Netherlands. Both hookers had their hooking foot far ahead of their standing foot, and those of their props, so that there was very little channel available. I pinged black first on his own throw in and at the next scrum told them both about where I expect their feet to be. Soon after pinged red once (both FK).
Later, reset 1 scrum for both hookers doing it and said "you guys have had enough warning. If you don't listen to me know I will have to reach into my pocket, and I will not hesitate to have you both off". Great channel appeared from then on in.