[Law] Ground against cormer flag

[crossref]

Interesting issue that came up in the Saracen Wasps semi final

White , attacking , attempt to score but grounds the ball against the base of corner flag post .

So what's the restart
- lineout to black
- 22m dropout to black
- depends on exactly where the ball was grounded .. ask the TMO

 

[ChrisR]

Assuming this 'corner flag' is at the intersection of goal line and touch, not dead ball and touch in goal. Assuming that the ball was in contact with corner flag as it was grounded. That is, not on ground first then slid into flag.

The inner edge of the corner flag should be on the outer edge of touch and goal lines.

Therefore a ball grounded against the corner flag will be in contact with touch and goal. Therefore, assuming that white took the ball into goal without infringement then a 22 drop out should be ordered.

 

[Taff]

Assuming this 'corner flag' is at the intersection of goal line and touch, not dead ball and touch in goal. Assuming that the ball was in contact with corner flag as it was grounded. That is, not on ground first then slid into flag.

Works for me Chris.

Depends where exactly the pole is located; and the Ref / TMO decides if the ball touched the goal line or the TiG line.

If it was the goal line, then it's a try. If it the TiG line, then 22m Drop out as it was taken in by an attacking player and made dead.

 

[OB..]

2018
[LAWS]21.18 If the ball or ball-carrier touches a corner flag or corner flag post without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal, play continues unless the ball is grounded against the post.[/LAWS]

2017
[LAWS]22.12 If the ball or a player carrying the ball touches a flag or a flag (corner) post at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the goal lines or at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the dead ball lines without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal the ball is not out of play unless it is first grounded against a flag post.[/LAWS]

I don't find either version particularly clear, but I think the usual view is that touching the post and ground together means touch-in-goal, whatever part of the ground the ball was touching. FWIW I thought the ball was actually grounded just short of the line.

 

[crossref]

So in this particular instance

First they decided that the ball had been grounded against the post , so no try

Then JP Doyle asked the TMO to determine the restart , and after some pause while the tmo watched the replay again, a 22 was awarded

 

[ChuckieB]

Personally, if we are talking about the ED attempt just seeing the highlights, I can't see that it was grounded against the post. Try looked good to me, all other things being equal.

Higlights didn't deal al with the restart

 

[Ian_Cook]

Assuming this 'corner flag' is at the intersection of goal line and touch, not dead ball and touch in goal. Assuming that the ball was in contact with corner flag as it was grounded. That is, not on ground first then slid into flag.

The inner edge of the corner flag should be on the outer edge of touch and goal lines.

Therefore a ball grounded against the corner flag will be in contact with touch and goal. Therefore, assuming that white took the ball into goal without infringement then a 22 drop out should be ordered.

I have argued that this ought to be mandatory ever since Law was first proposed as an ELV back in December 2007, in fact, what you wrote in your post is just about exactly what the wording was in the ELV...

1. Posts and flags around the field
a. Corner posts will be positioned at the outside junction of the goal line and the touch line.
i. If a player is in possession of the ball and touches a corner post he will not be in touch unless he touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline.
ii. If the ball is not being carried by a player and it touches the corner post the ball will be deemed to be touch in goal.

In fact, when the ELV's were being trialled in NZ in the Air NZ Cup, that is exactly what was done.

The way they have the corner flags positioned now, it is quite possible for a ball to be grounded on the goal-line, and touching the flag post, while still not actually touching the TiG line. If you have the flag post positioned as in the photo above, it would be impossible for a grounded ball to touch the flag post without also touching the TiG. This makes a lot more sense to me than what is currently happening.

 

[crossref]

So the answer to the OP is that you have to ask the TMO . If the ball was touching the goal line it's a 22m dropout, otherwise a lineout

The precise position of the post will be important
If

 

[Dickie E]

I have argued that this ought to be mandatory ever since Law was first proposed as an ELV back in December 2007, in fact, what you wrote in your post is just about exactly what the wording was in the ELV...

1. Posts and flags around the field
a. Corner posts will be positioned at the outside junction of the goal line and the touch line.
i. If a player is in possession of the ball and touches a corner post he will not be in touch unless he touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline.
ii. If the ball is not being carried by a player and it touches the corner post the ball will be deemed to be touch in goal.

In fact, when the ELV's were being trialled in NZ in the Air NZ Cup, that is exactly what was done.

The way they have the corner flags positioned now, it is quite possible for a ball to be grounded on the goal-line, and touching the flag post, while still not actually touching the TiG line. If you have the flag post positioned as in the photo above, it would be impossible for a grounded ball to touch the flag post without also touching the TiG. This makes a lot more sense to me than what is currently happening.

Shrug. Not worth sweating over IMO. You can ground the ball against the goal posts for a try without getting anywhere near the white paint.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Shrug. Not worth sweating over IMO. You can ground the ball against the goal posts for a try without getting anywhere near the white paint.

Its the outlier case that interests me. While it may not apply at grass roots, it does at pro level where there is a TMO.

If you ground the ball on the goal-line and simultaneously place the ball against the post, the ball is TiG without getting anywhere near the white paint.

 

[crossref]

Well, it's on the white paint of the goal line ..

 

[Ian_Cook]

Well, it's on the white paint of the goal line ..

Yes, and if it is SIMULTANEOUSLY in contact with the post, the ball is TiG

2018
[LAWS]GROUNDING THE BALL
4. When an attacking player holding the ball grounds the ball in in-goal and simultaneously makes contact with the touch-in-goal line or the dead-ball line (or anywhere beyond either), a 22-metre drop-out is awarded to the defending team.[/LAWS]


2018
[LAWS]21.18 If the ball or ball-carrier touches a corner flag or corner flag post without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal, play continues unless the ball is grounded against the post.
[/LAWS]


2017
[LAWS]22.12 If the ball or a player carrying the ball touches a flag or a flag (corner) post at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the goal lines or at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the dead ball lines without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal the ball is not out of play unless it is first grounded against a flag post[/LAWS].

 

[crossref]

Yes, but dependent on exactly where the flag post is positioned, it would be possible to ground the ball against the base of the post WITHOUT touching the goal line , or the TIG line.

In this case the restart would be a lineout.

That was the possibility that the TMO was considering as he decided what the restart would be

 

[Ian_Cook]

Yes, but dependent on exactly where the flag post is positioned, it would be possible to ground the ball against the base of the post WITHOUT touching the goal line , or the TIG line.

In this case the restart would be a lineout.

That was the possibility that the TMO was considering as he decided what the restart would be

The point I was making is that by positioning the flag where ChrisR and I suggested, and where the original ELV's had it, you eliminate any possibility that the ball could be grounded against the post without also being grounded on a line; i.e. you remove the possibility of the outlier, and you reduce the requirement for a judgement. If you can chop controversy off at the knees by the simple, practical step of having a slight change in position of the corner posts (a step which has no downside whatsoever, inconveniences no-one), why would you not do so?

 

[crossref]

ah well, we were talking at cross purposes, I was discussing the Law as it stands, and how you apply it.

I think that in any particular instance to determine the restart you have to accept where the flag post actually is (regardless of whether it's in the correct place) and make a judgement about whether the ball actually touches any lines, and which

 

[ChrisR]

I think the flag post could/should be positioned 2m from touchline and then we're just dealing with the lines. I don't think we'd give anything up, except of course, we'd miss all those spectacular plays with the body flattening the post but the ball gets grounded in goal.

 

[Dickie E]

I think the flag post could/should be positioned 2m from touchline and then we're just dealing with the lines. I don't think we'd give anything up, except of course, we'd miss all those spectacular plays with the body flattening the post but the ball gets grounded in goal.

The only thing that comes to mind is that the ref and/or AR commonly uses the corner flag to verify whether a PK for touch crosses touch or TiG

 

[Pinky]

The point I was making is that by positioning the flag where ChrisR and I suggested, and where the original ELV's had it, you eliminate any possibility that the ball could be grounded against the post without also being grounded on a line; i.e. you remove the possibility of the outlier, and you reduce the requirement for a judgement. If you can chop controversy off at the knees by the simple, practical step of having a slight change in position of the corner posts (a step which has no downside whatsoever, inconveniences no-one), why would you not do so?

Yes, but any ball that hit the flagpost so positioned would have crossed the plane of touch.

Interesting that you need to read the 2017 law to know that the ball is out of play if grounded against the post, as 2018 simply says play does not continue but doesn't explain why. I know that is not because a try has been awarded, but the alien reading only the 2018 book may not.

 

[Taff]

Well, it's on the white paint of the goal line ..

I suppose the question is, is it also on the white paint of TiG?

 

[crossref]

I suppose the question is, is it also on the white paint of TiG?

Doesn't matter as if it is on the goal line it's in goal and dead, so the restart is a 22 regardless of whether it also touches the TIG line