[Law] Folau’s online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

[SimonSmith]

Can you point us to these gay-bashing, women-bashing, etc posts? Why does he have to shut up about his belief's when they are shared by other major religions and we don't demand that they stop teaching their dogma? Catholicism & Islam both believe that homosexuality and adultery are cardinal sins but we don't see the level of vitriol and abuse being hurled at them.

The event that kicked all this off was him posting a picture with a list of people that his church (along with Catholicism and Islam) believe are sinners - gays, adulterers, drunks, liars, fornicators, thief's, idolaters and atheists - and that the only way to avoid going to 'Hell' was to turn to Jesus. Terms like 'homophobic' or 'misogyny/misandry' are being used too often IMO that when a genuine hate crime occurs, it just becomes part of the background noise. Would the same level of hate be directed at him if he had left gay off the list?

The minute a Catholic or Muslim player made comments like that in the way IF did, I'm pretty sure they would get the same reaction.

 

[crossref]

Well, Billy V was given a warning, but was not required to withdraw or delete the tweet

 

[Ian_Cook]

I think he does promote religious tolerance , while also evangelising. (a mainstream position)

Do you have any quotes where he is intolerant of other religions

Ok Then

“Warning – Drunks, Homosexuals, Adulterers, Liars, Fornicators, Thieves, Atheists, Idolators
HELL AWAITS YOU. REPENT! ONLY JESUS SAVES”

Idolatry is the worship of an idol or cult image, being a physical image, such as a statue, or a person in place of God. In Abrahamic religions, namely Christianity, Islam and Judaism, idolatry connotes the worship of something or someone other than God as if it were God.

He is intolerant of idolators! That makes him intolerant of all other religions that worship deities other than HIS interpretation of the one true God - it will include, among others, Muslims, Hindus, Shinto and all polytheistic religions

Language is a powerful tool, but it becomes a weapon when it is abused in the way Folau chose to use it. He used language in a way that differentiates it from free speech; in a way that becomes bigotry.

The way Folau weaponised language empowers and emboldens other other bigots (as we clearly have seen) to act on their homophobia. That makes Folau’s rant not free speech, but a hate crime.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The minute a Catholic or Muslim player made comments like that in the way IF did, I'm pretty sure they would get the same reaction.

And the end result would have been the same. 8 M dollar settlement

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The way Folau weaponised language empowers and emboldens other other bigots (as we clearly have seen) to act on their homophobia. That makes Folau’s rant not free speech, but a hate crime.

Cut and dry. Now the real question, will France extradite a Tongan to Australia to face justice?

 

[menace]

While I encourage open and healthy debate....personally I dont no why you're giving this clown so much air time?

Let his "15 minutes" of fame be over and let him fade away to be "the bottom of the birdcage lining".

(No i have not wasted my time reading all the posts...but this damn thread keeps popping up in my "todays post" list far too often. :biggrin

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

(No i have not wasted my time reading all the posts...but this damn thread keeps popping up in my "todays post" list far too often. :biggrin

Well put me on your ignore list that will help. We are going for 1000 posts, you can avoid us.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

The way Folau weaponised language empowers and emboldens other other bigots (as we clearly have seen) to act on their homophobia. That makes Folau’s rant not free speech, but a hate crime.

Are you seriously calling his comment a hate crime? Is it on the same level as murder or assault? Could you point to which criminal code he has broken and if so why he hasn't been prosecuted? Saying that people will go to hell if they don't follow god/allah/budda is not a crime in Australia. Don't claim that Language is powerful and then misuse it to try to make your own point.

 

[L'irlandais]

Cut and dry. Now the real question, will France extradite a Tongan to Australia to face justice?

France won’t have to extradite Israel Folau, if he lives and works in France, he will be subject to the Laws of this Land. I’d strongly suggest he watch what he posts online, only I’d hate to spoil the fun of seeing him dragged before the courts here, before too long. The debate about hate speech and freedom of speech is intricate, not sure IF is intelligent enough not to overstep the fine line drawn in French Law. Not sure he even speaks French, so his imminent conviction may come as a surprise to him.

« l’insulte à une religion [n’est pas] une atteinte à la liberté de conscience ». En France, il est interdit d’insulter les adeptes d’une religion mais on peut insulter une religion, ses figures, ses symboles.

In the linked case French courts found that the teenager concerned was entitled to her opinion that Islam was a religion of hate; sSince she insulted the religion and not any individuals. No blasphemy law in France. Those (muslims) who responded with hate speech against her homosexuality however risk conviction. Folau’s position is closer to the latter. That is he risks conviction for hate speech (here in France) if he strays from his current generalizations.

@Jarrod He doesn’t live in Oz anymore. So Australian criminal code will be no defence under the French legal system. While I don’t agree with the French interpretation, his comments are bordering on hate speech in this country.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Are you seriously calling his comment a hate crime?

Yes, its hate speech, and hate speech is a crime, under NSW State Law (and all the laws of all the remaining states as well)

Is it on the same level as murder or assault?

Put the hyperbole away and stop being ridiculous, of course its not. There are many crimes that are not on the same level as murder or assault, but they are still crimes; burglary, car theft, embezzlement, corruption, fraud.... and hate speech.

Could you point to which criminal code he has broken.

Sure

The New South Wales Anti-Discrimination Act 1977

The Act prohibits unlawful racial, sexual and other types of discrimination in certain circumstances and promotes equality of opportunity for all people

The Act covers the following types of discrimination:

Sex (including breastfeeding, pregnancy and sexual harassment)
Disability (including past, present or future disability and also includes actual or perceived HIV status)
Race (including ethno-religion)
Homosexuality (actual or perceived)
Marital or domestic status
Age (present or future)
Transgender (including transsexuality)
Carer’s responsibilities (but only within employment).

2018 Amendment to the Crimes Act 1900 No 40
Part 3A, Division 8
Public threats or incitement of violence on grounds of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity or
intersex or HIV/AIDS status

93Z Offence of publicly threatening or inciting violence on grounds of race,
religion, sexual orientation, gender identity or intersex or HIV/AIDS status
(1) A person who, by a public act, intentionally or recklessly threatens or incites
violence towards another person or a group of persons on any of the following
grounds is guilty of an offence:
(a) the race of the other person or one or more of the members of the group,
(b) that the other person has, or one or more of the members of the group
have, a specific religious belief or affiliation,
(c) the sexual orientation of the other person or one or more of the members
of the group,
(d) the gender identity of the other person or one or more of the members
of the group,
(e) that the other person is, or one or more of the members of the group are,
of intersex status,
(f) that the other person has, or one or more of the members of the group
have, HIV or AIDS.

public act includes:
(a) any form of communication (including speaking, writing, displaying
notices, playing of recorded material, broadcasting and communicating
through social media and other electronic methods) to the public, and
(b) any conduct (including actions and gestures and the wearing or display
of clothing, signs, flags, emblems and insignia) observable by the
public, and
(c) the distribution or dissemination of any matter to the public.
For the avoidance of doubt, an act may be a public act even if it occurs on
private land.
race includes colour, nationality, descent and ethnic, ethno-religious or
national origin.
religious belief or affiliation means holding or not holding a religious belief
or view.
sexual orientation means a person’s sexual orientation towards:
(a) persons of the same sex, or
(b) persons of a different sex, or
(c) persons of the same sex and persons of a different sex.
violence includes violent conduct and violence towards a person or a group
of persons includes violence towards property of the person or a member of
the group, respectively.

...why he hasn't been prosecuted?

You'll have to ask the authorities that.

Saying that people will go to hell if they don't follow god/allah/budda is not a crime in Australia.

Christians really believe in the whole heaven and hell thing. Its hard to think of a greater, or more violent threat to a devout Christian gay person that they will suffer eternal damnation for being gay.

Don't claim that Language is powerful and then misuse it to try to make your own point.

I have misused nothing. Everything I have said here is verifiable.


EDIT: Oh, if you don't believe that Folau's comments have incited threats

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...tened-wallabies-coach-michael-cheika/11513484

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-threaten-Wallabies-coach-Michael-Cheika.html

 

[Ian_Cook]

France won’t have to extradite Israel Folau, if he lives and works in France, he will be subject to the Laws of this Land. I’d strongly suggest he watch what he posts online, only I’d hate to spoil the fun of seeing him dragged before the courts here, before too long. The debate about hate speech and freedom of speech is intricate, not sure IF is intelligent enough not to overstep the fine line drawn in French Law. Not sure he even speaks French, so his imminent conviction may come as a surprise to him.

In the linked case French courts found that the teenager concerned was entitled to her opinion that Islam was a religion of hate; sSince she insulted the religion and not any individuals. No blasphemy law in France. Those (muslims) who responded with hate speech against her homosexuality however risk conviction. Folau’s position is closer to the latter. That is he risks conviction for hate speech (here in France) if he strays from his current generalizations.

@Jarrod He doesn’t live in Oz anymore. So Australian criminal code will be no defence under the French legal system. While I don’t agree with the French interpretation, his comments are bordering on hate speech in this country.

I agree.

France is a very, very progressive country, and it does no tolerate discrimination at all. I could not think of a worse place (other than an Islamic country) for a homophobic bigot like Folau to live. If he comes with his bigoted biblical hate speech there, his "strongly held beliefs" will not be a defence, and the hammer will come down on him very, very hard.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

I have misused nothing. Everything I have said here is verifiable.


EDIT: Oh, if you don't believe that Folau's comments have incited threats

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...tened-wallabies-coach-michael-cheika/11513484

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-threaten-Wallabies-coach-Michael-Cheika.html

Did you read article or just the headline? Both articles only contained this statement from the coach Cheika. It may be verifiable that Coach Cheika wasn't overly concerned. Please note his use of just to describe incidents. No incidents were specifically mentioned or reported.



After he made the decision to leave the controversial fullback out of the team, he received threats, The Sydney Morning Herald reported.

'People were saying all sorts of stuff,' the Wallabies coach said.

'Just threats I was getting; people on the street, some to my face, a couple at some games. It was just crazy stuff.'

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

You'll have to ask the authorities that.

We kinda have a pretty valid determination from representatives from both parties (IF and AR), which was 8M. I think they may have had some experience with law when they came to this conclusion.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

France won’t have to extradite Israel Folau,

I was suggesting that France extradite IF to Australia for the alleged hate speech has previously committed.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Did you read article or just the headline? Both articles only contained this statement from the coach Cheika. It may be verifiable that Coach Cheika wasn't overly concerned. Please note his use of just to describe incidents. No incidents were specifically mentioned or reported.

After he made the decision to leave the controversial fullback out of the team, he received threats, The Sydney Morning Herald reported.

'People were saying all sorts of stuff,' the Wallabies coach said.

'Just threats I was getting; people on the street, some to my face, a couple at some games. It was just crazy stuff.'

First, you should understand that he isn't using the word "just" the same way in both sentences. In the first sentence, he uses it in the first adverbial form meaning only or simply, as in "it was just a metre long". In the second sentence, he is using it in the second adverbial form, to make a statement stronger, as in "that is just deplorable"

However, a threat is a threat! Ask yourself if Cheika would have received these threats if the bigoted Folau rant had never happened, or if he dropped Folau, or any other player, for poor form, or for turning up to training late, or for breaking team protocols?

Answer the question honestly

 

[Ian_Cook]

I was suggesting that France extradite IF to Australia for the alleged hate speech has previously committed.

They won't have to. I am fairly good at reading religious froot loops (on another forum I debate YEC's, and believe me, you will struggle to find another group that contains more bigotry, more religious nutjobbery and more outright Stupidity than that crowd)

If I read Folau correctly, he will not be able to shut up - he could shut up when his job was on the line in Australia, and I predict he won'tl be able to now. Did you see his vile statements about the victims of the Australian bushfires, in which he said they were suffering, "a little taste of God's judgement". This is while all the crap was still going on with Rugby Australia!

Folau is a very nasty man who is utterly insensitive to the pain and suffering of others.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

However, a threat is a threat! Ask yourself if Cheika would have received these threats if the bigoted Folau rant had never happened, or if he dropped Folau, or any other player, for poor form, or for turning up to training late, or for breaking team protocols?

Answer the question honestly

No Cheika would not have received these threats, BUT by following your "logic tree", Ask yourself would Wigan have scheduled a pride day if the IF rant never happened?

Answer the question honestly?

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

T you will struggle to find another group that contains more bigotry, more religious nutjobbery and more outright Stupidity than that crowd).

Well about 1.7 million people were killed and there is a rugby team named after these fighters. This club even kept the name after a terror attack in a mosque occurred. How insensitive can humans be?

 

[Ian_Cook]

No Cheika would not have received these threats, BUT by following your "logic tree", Ask yourself would Wigan have scheduled a pride day if the IF rant never happened?

Answer the question honestly?

Yes, they would have.

The Gay Pride day has been an annual event for Wigan since 2016... that's two years before Folau's rant

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Yes, they would have.

The Gay Pride day has been an annual event for Wigan since 2016... that's two years before Folau's rant

this is what i wrote about, would the wigan warriors had a pride day the same day they play the dragons?

https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/01/29/wigan-announce-pride-day-for-clash-with-folau-and-catalans/

English Super League club Wigan Warriors have responded to Israel Folau's return to rugby league by declaring their round eight clash with Catalans will be a 'Pride Day' celebration on March 22.

Just 20 minutes after the French organisation unveiled their controversial recruit, Wigan announced that the match against Folau's new club will be dedicated to the LGBTQ+ community and their players will don rainbow socks and laces for the occasion.