[Law] Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

[CrouchTPEngage]

Red attacking Blue. Red 10 passes long to red 13 who cannot gather the ball cleanly but juggles it. He was moving forwards at pace. This "juggle" is best described as knocking the ball forward with fingers of left-hand , at least twice.

Blue 13 has closed him down quickly and attempts to take the ball whilst its in the air between one of Red-13's juggle-knock-forwards. However, Blue-13's attempt is best described as prodding the ball forward and left-a little so that it falls into his running line. He messes up this attempt and the ball hits the ground from this "prod forward" attempt.

I wait for advantage but none is forthcoming so I award RED a scrum for the knock-on.

But Blue-13 says something like
"But Sir ! Surely the definition of a knock-on includes hitting the ground or another player and so, HE knocked it forward into ME first !".

I see his point but explain "No. HE was in possession and you actively hit the ball. He didnt passively lose the ball forward such that it hit YOU. He would have re-gathered the ball if you had not knocked it forward.".

Is that correct ? Technically I see the point that the FIRST knock-on was from the Red player into the Blue player's hand. But , that interpretation allows for defenders, when seeing an attacker juggling the ball, to move toward the ball and simply slap it forwards to win themselves a knock-on !!! Right ?

 

[crossref]

if either player is knocking the ball forward deliberately it's a PK

if it's a tackle and the ball just happens to come loose, it's a knock on to one team or the other, depending on which way the ball comes out.

 

[Pablo]

Red attacking Blue. Red 10 passes long to red 13 who cannot gather the ball cleanly but juggles it. He was moving forwards at pace. This "juggle" is best described as knocking the ball forward with fingers of left-hand , at least twice.

Blue 13 has closed him down quickly and attempts to take the ball whilst its in the air between one of Red-13's juggle-knock-forwards. However, Blue-13's attempt is best described as prodding the ball forward and left-a little so that it falls into his running line. He messes up this attempt and the ball hits the ground from this "prod forward" attempt.

I wait for advantage but none is forthcoming so I award RED a scrum for the knock-on.

But Blue-13 says something like
"But Sir ! Surely the definition of a knock-on includes hitting the ground or another player and so, HE knocked it forward into ME first !".

I see his point but explain "No. HE was in possession and you actively hit the ball. He didnt passively lose the ball forward such that it hit YOU. He would have re-gathered the ball if you had not knocked it forward.".

Is that correct ? Technically I see the point that the FIRST knock-on was from the Red player into the Blue player's hand.

Look, you got to see it once, and you called it as you saw it. So it’s difficult to be critical about this - but from your description, I would probably say that I side slightly with Blue, since it doesn’t seem his knock on was intentional. But I wasn’t there

But , that interpretation allows for defenders, when seeing an attacker juggling the ball, to move toward the ball and simply slap it forwards to win themselves a knock-on !!! Right ?

No, because that’s a deliberate knock on by Blue. Given that a deliberate infringement is a penalty, that trumps Red’s accidental knock on, so I’m going to rule PK against Blue.

 

[beckett50]

Sounds like was in possession of the ball - as per definitions.

Blue tackled red and knocked on.

Your decision was correct in Law, IMO

 

[Arabcheif]

I think you've got to ask yourself - Was Blue 13's a deliberate KO. If no then I'd go with the original KN by red and scrum blue. If it deliberate the PK against blue. But as Pablo said, you called it like you saw it. During our Soc Meetings when we watch the same video, there can be 20 refs spotting 7 or 8 different infringements. So you're view is the fact of the time. A lot of the guys on here say as long as you can sell the decision then that's all that matters.

The only decision, I've had to sell turned out to be wrong. Tackler ripped the ball from a BC, ball went forward from the ripper. I had a brain fart at the time shouted play on. Captain questioned it at the next break down, told her that as long as it goes back from the BC that's fine. Realised almost as soon as I said it it was wrong. Point is I feel if I need to sell a call, it may well be wrong.

 

[crossref]

But why is he there in the first place ?

We are not going to agree !

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Red knocked on then blue knocks on.

First offence RED so Scrum BLUE.


UNLESS Blue's knock on was intentional in which case I'd give a PK against him. Reasoning: Deliberate offence trying to "win the scrum".

 

[Rich_NL]

Agreed with others in the thread... I wasn't there, but my first impression (Blue "attempts to take the ball whilst its in the air") is that Red didn't regather before the ball touched another player, so scrum Blue, clever play of Blue to contest.

If it was a C&O cynical slap-down rather than a contest for the ball, foul play trumps the scrum advantage. PK and possibly yellow.

I don't see a scrum to red as an outcome, though.

 

[Pinky]

For me red is juggling so is able to be tackled, but has not caught the ball from his original knock on so as it hits blue before he regathers, I would go blue scrum. That was the first I Fri cement and is not overturned in my view by blue's knock.

 

[Arabcheif]

But why is he there in the first place ?

We are not going to agree !

Why was who there? If you're referring to Blue 13 - I suspect he was attempting to steal the ball. But the original statement seems accurate to me. Ball was "in possession" of red 13 (by attempting to gain possession), he's knocked the ball forward and is trying to regain possession. It then hit Blue 13. So there's a knock on from red. Scrum Blue, the only relevance after that is did Blue slap it down or 5 meters in front of him and would never have a chance to regather it. If he didn't, then I'd PK to red for a deliberate knock on.

 

[crossref]

Arab my comment was on the wrong thread. Oops

 

[Arabcheif]

Arab my comment was on the wrong thread. Oops

Ah thought so.

 

[OB..]

We have something of a contradiction in the laws here. Red is juggling the ball and is therefore liable to be tackled (legally). If the ball goes outside his reach and then hits Blue, I can see it as a knock-on. However if the ball is still with in his grasp it seems odd if he can be deemed to be in possession yet guilty of a knock-on.

 

[Arabcheif]

I see what your saying, but the blue player's not attempting a tackle. He's attempting to steal the ball by catching it. He was ultimately unsuccessful in his attempt. But as soon as he tries to catch the ball and touches it. That's the first knock on, unless you deem the 2nd knock on deliberate, the 1st offence would be red's knock on with no advantage as blue have immediately knocked on too.

 

[chbg]

We have something of a contradiction in the laws here. Red is juggling the ball and is therefore liable to be tackled (legally). If the ball goes outside his reach and then hits Blue, I can see it as a knock-on. However if the ball is still with in his grasp it seems odd if he can be deemed to be in possession yet guilty of a knock-on.

My first thought: the 'knock-on' occurs when the ball touches another player or the ground before the original ball-carrier can catch it. However, the Definitions start: "when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward", not "when the ball goes forward and a player loses possession of it". So I now tend to accept the argument that, as 'juggling' is 'in possession', the first KO was by Blue. Not that I like it!

 

[Dickie E]

My first thought: the 'knock-on' occurs when the ball touches another player or the ground before the original ball-carrier can catch it. However, the Definitions start: "when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward", not "when the ball goes forward and a player loses possession of it". So I now tend to accept the argument that, as 'juggling' is 'in possession', the first KO was by Blue. Not that I like it!

I would treat this event as I would a kick. I'm OK with ball going forward as long as the kick is completed. But if kick isn't made, then I'm going KO.

Likewise, if player is juggling ball and it bounces off a team mate in front. KO.

 

[beckett50]

Red knocked on then blue knocks on.

First offence RED so Scrum BLUE.


UNLESS Blue's knock on was intentional in which case I'd give a PK against him. Reasoning: Deliberate offence trying to "win the scrum".

The way it has been described in the OP, the Red player is in possession of the ball. Yes, he may be "juggling" it but various clarifications - and the current Law book - say that (despite this "juggling") Red is in possession.

That being the fact, in the tackle by Blue (as described) the ball is knocked toward the Red Goal Line as a result of contact with the Blue player.

Hence why I say it is a scrum to Red.

 

[Dickie E]

The way it has been described in the OP, the Red player is in possession of the ball. Yes, he may be "juggling" it but various clarifications - and the current Law book - say that (despite this "juggling") Red is in possession.

That being the fact, in the tackle by Blue (as described) the ball is knocked toward the Red Goal Line as a result of contact with the Blue player.

Hence why I say it is a scrum to Red.

so if Red player was juggling the ball and it bounced off an in-front team mate and back into his hands ... that is play on?

 

[damo]

My view is that some are overthinking it. Red lost control of ball forward and it hit an opposition player.


Red has knocked on and it's a blue scrum.

 

[crossref]

My view is that some are overthinking it. Red lost control of ball forward and it hit an opposition player.


Red has knocked on and it's a blue scrum.

In the OP I think he is saying that Blue intentionally went for the ball (rather than a tackle) and knocked the ball out of red possession.

So a scrum to Red (or PK if it was judged deliberate)