ADVANTAGE WHEN TIME IS UP

[crossref]

Something of a side note perhaps, but if I offered a scrum advantage to a team with only a few seconds left on the clock and time went into the red but advantage was not gained, I would still have the scrum set for ball to be put back in play.

I’m aware this is not strictly the letter of the law but would do it 100% of the time at grassroots level.

which is indeed one example of how you might take account of the clock when handling advantage.

 

[Locke]

which is indeed one example of how you might take account of the clock when handling advantage.

I see your point but I think of it as not considering the clock. All other things being equal, I would offer the same scrum advantage in minute 1 as in minute 80, let it play looking for the same amount of advantage gained, and calling it back for the scrum if no advantage gained, regardless of the clock now being in minute 2 or minute 81.

 

[crossref]

I see your point but I think of it as not considering the clock. All other things being equal, I would offer the same scrum advantage in minute 1 as in minute 80, let it play looking for the same amount of advantage gained, and calling it back for the scrum if no advantage gained, regardless of the clock now being in minute 2 or minute 81.

well.. rather than adjust the way you handle advantage to take account of the clock (that the players can't see) you are adjusting the clock (that the players can't see) to take account of how you are handling the advantage.

Not so different, really : just like me - you are making sure that you don't end up in the situation I described in post #29, but via a different route.

thing is : my route is within the Laws (as the ref has wide discretion on how to handle advantage) yours isn't really, as you are restarting the game even though you know time has expired. (albeit no one else knows .. but make sure your watch doesn't bleep!)

 

[BikingBud]

I'm still unsure why you need to adjust anything,

If the offence is with 5 seconds left on the clock and you decide no advantage therefore scrum, then the scrum goes ahead.

If the offence is before 80 mins and advantage is accrued then at next stoppage after 80 mins, no side occurs. Once you start bringing this back where do you draw the line? And how do you sell it to the players?

If the offence is after 80 mins and there is no advantage, eg double knock on, then no side occurs.

 

[BikingBud]

New Zealand had 3 penalty advantages, including kicked away, kick to touch and lineout, before getting a try at around 44 mins.

 

[crossref]

Still not really sure what is your answer to the question.
So cryptic

 

[Dickie E]

Still not really sure what is your answer to the question.
So cryptic

I'm not sure what your answer is

 

[didds]

My answer is that I like cheese. I do hope that helps

 

[SimonSmith]

My answer is that I like cheese. I do hope that helps

Didds, how can I pass judgment on your cheese position without knowing what cheese?!

 

[Dickie E]

Didds, how can I pass judgment on your cheese position without knowing what cheese?!

To brie or not to brie?

 

[crossref]

I'm not sure what your answer is

I am merely saying that : how much time is on the clock is one of the many factors a ref might consider when handling advantage.

And I gave a couple of example scenarios where time is a factor (not exhaustive)

 

[didds]

Didds, how can I pass judgment on your cheese position without knowing what cheese?!

All of it.

Twice.

HTH!

 

[didds]

To brie or not to brie?

say that caerphilly!

 

[Dickie E]

I agree with Locke

 

[Marc Wakeham]

For me the time I "award" the scrum / FK / PK is the time I call advantage. So if there is an offence at 79:55 I play my " normal" advantage for the offence. Once that is up it is up. if it do not go to "over" I go back for the offence.

Hopefully my advantages are therefore consistent. My assessments suggest I am pretty successful in this respect.

 

[crossref]

For me the time I "award" the scrum / FK / PK is the time I call advantage. So if there is an offence at 79:55 I play my " normal" advantage for the offence. Once that is up it is up. if it do not go to "over" I go back for the offence.

Hopefully my advantages are therefore consistent. My assessments suggest I am prett successful in this respect.

So, like locke, you adjust your clock to take account of your handling of adv (rather than adjust your handling of adv to take account of the clock

It amounts to much the same thing (in this scenario) but only works when you have a private clock , rather than a stadium clock (and make sure your watch doesn't bleep! Or it could be awkward to restart)

 

[BikingBud]

Makes absolute sense

For me the time I "award" the scrum / FK / PK is the time I call advantage. So if there is an offence at 79:55 I play my " normal" advantage for the offence. Once that is up it is up. if it do not go to "over" I go back for the offence.

Hopefully my advantages are therefore consistent. My assessments suggest I am prett successful in this respect.

Law 5 - Time:

7. A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:

1. A scrum, lineout or restart kick following a try or touchdown, awarded before time expired, has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play. This includes when the scrum, lineout or restart kick is taken incorrectly.
2. The referee awards a free-kick or penalty.
3. A penalty is kicked into touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player.
4. A try has been scored, in which case the referee allows time for the conversion to be taken.

 

[BikingBud]

Still not really sure what is your answer to the question.
So cryptic

My point is that you always want to categorise everything to the nth degree, and my answer was it will depend, you might introduce the dog walking onto the pitch next, so it always depends.

I offered #44 as a straightforward decision framework, there is an offence, the time of the offence being the factor not the time or length of the advantage.

I offered #45 as a very recent and topical example, last night's NZ v It game, of how the referee might award consecutive advantages due to new infringements, as I suggested in #34:

Theoretically, and I know how much you like these hypothetical scenarios, blue could continue for 10 mins and 50 phases but unless there is a stoppage the game doesn't end.

Notwithstanding, the laws are straightforward and people seem to apply them as they are written and I expect were intended to be applied but you want to start dicking around with needless adjustments to the clock.

See #55 for simple explanation of how one forum member applies it and #57 for reference in law.

I really cannot say it in any simpler terms.

 

[crossref]

I think, @BikingBud you are saying that yes you might take time on the clock into consideration when handling advantage

 

[BikingBud]

So, like locke, you adjust your clock to take account of your handling of adv (rather than adjust your handling of adv to take account of the clock

It amounts to much the same thing (in this scenario) but only works when you have a private clock , rather than a stadium clock (and make sure your watch doesn't bleep! Or it could be awkward to restart)

It really isn't the same thing! Your tolerance for advantage has to be consistent. I mentioned in #36 that allowing advantage to enable teams to control their own fate is the key, not pulling them back because the time might be running out and you feel they should have the scrum.

What do you do when your watch starts beeping when the scrum or line out is forming? Or the kicker is lining up a penalty towards the defenders' corner flag. I would suggest you allow the game to continue inline with Law 5-Time, the very same Law that provides for advantage to be played and governs how others seem to apply it.

I think, @BikingBud you are saying that yes you might take time on the clock into consideration when handling advantage

Nope!

One might have suggested it was a 50/50 split on what might focus my decisions but given my posts and the evidence provided I am somewhat astonished to find that you are still wandering off happily on your own little frolic. Therefore, I would welcome your interpretation of my comments and reflection on the law and specific real and contemporary examples so I can truly try to understand your logic.

After a few years I suppose I should be used to it by now and really should have learnt!