2018 Laws .. hand offs

[crossref]

What do we think of this new offence ?

This is new in the 2018 book

9

.24. A ball-carrier is permitted to hand off an opponent provided excessive force is not used.
Sanction: Penalty.

Seems to me a very curious addition to the Law book. Can’t find any other reference to excessive force.

Striking a tackler would be covered by 7.12, so this presumably means you can’t push to hard… so perhaps this is connected to the removal of the express permission to push a ball carrier.

At the very least if you can't hand-off with excessive force then presumbly you can't push a ball carrier with excessive force.

 

[Jolly Roger]

I have been asked a number of times over the years about the level of force that can be used in hand offs, particularly by 16-18 year olds.
I have said that if a player strikes an opponent with the heel of his hand in a quick jabbing movement (especially to the head) I would interpret that as akin to a punch and penalise for violent contact.
Pretty much anything else I see as fair play. I don't see that the new wording affects this interpretation. In fact it makes it clear and simple to players, officials, and spectators that a hand off should not involve excessive force. As it is not possible to be definitive regarding the number of Newtons applied to the defender it is down to the officials to interpret excessive force.
Seems clear, simple and sensible to me.

 

[SimonSmith]

I am waiting for the inevitable post on the USA Referees webpage that someone thinks that any hand to the head is excessive and he will penalize it as such.

Trust me. It will happen.

 

[crossref]

Jolly .. this Law is for adults not age group.

As you say something like a punch is covered anyway , and everything else is OK

So can you give any example of what you think would be covered by this Law ?

 

[Jolly Roger]

Jolly .. this Law is for adults not age group.

As you say something like a punch is covered anyway , and everything else is OK

So can you give any example of what you think would be covered by this Law ?

Hi Crossref,

I don’t see there being an issue with the wording. As I said, a jab with heel of hand is “excessive force” and therefore foul play. Yes, it is already covered in law but we should remember that the 2018 Law Book has been developed to provide a simpler, more concise, and easily understandable format for all those involved in rugby including casual spectators, not just officials and coaches. I therefore think that this is a helpful clarification.

If you would like more specifics I could add that if the arm is at full extent when content is made then it is a handoff but if elbow is bent in contact and then extends.....but really would not want to go down that route. To me, “excessive force” is pretty easy for everyone to understand and enables the ref to judge the event as they see it.

WRT age grade in Scotland, hand off is not permitted at Mini/primary school (U12 and below) but is allowed at Midi /high school (U13 and above)

 

[crossref]

i can't see the point of it, TBH.

if we have this, we should have Laws against tackling with excessive force, scrumming with excessive force and pushing the ball carrier with excessive force.

Also I don't really see how it squares with this..

[LAWS]At first glance it is difficult to find the guiding principles behind a game which, to the casual observer, appears to be a mass of contradictions. It is perfectly acceptable, for example, to be seen to be exerting extreme physical pressure on an opponent in an attempt to gain possession of the ball, but not wilfully or maliciously to inflict injury.[/LAWS]
'
extreme physical pressure is OK, but if you hand-off with 'excessive force' it's a PK

 

[OB..]

i can't see the point of it, TBH.

if we have this, we should have Laws against tackling with excessive force, scrumming with excessive force and pushing the ball carrier with excessive force.

Also I don't really see how it squares with this..

[LAWS]At first glance it is difficult to find the guiding principles behind a game which, to the casual observer, appears to be a mass of contradictions. It is perfectly acceptable, for example, to be seen to be exerting extreme physical pressure on an opponent in an attempt to gain possession of the ball, but not wilfully or maliciously to inflict injury.[/LAWS]
'
extreme physical pressure is OK, but if you hand-off with 'excessive force' it's a PK

For a long time a hand-off was technically illegal because you were by definition "playing an opponent without the ball". That meant there was no clear indication of what constituted a dangerous hand-off.

Then they added a line to Law 7 (Mode of Play) to make it legal, but but without any limitations or sanction.

That law has now been removed* and the hand-off formally stated elsewhere, including a sanction. The game depends on maintaining a tricky balance between legal and illegal use of force. The hand-off is no different, but at least it is now part of the family.

*There was no need to cause re-numbering confusion by removing Law 7. From 1985 to 1999 we had
[LAWS]Law 19 LYING WITH, ON OR NEAR THE BALL
The requirements of this Law are now incorporated into Law 18.
[/LAWS]
The 2000 re-write reorganised the laws, so re-numbering was inevitable for most laws. Why confuse the issue now when there is supposed to be no change otherwise?

 

[Jolly Roger]

OB - extreme physical pressure is OK, but if you hand-off with 'excessive force' it's a PK

I am perfectly happy with that, don’t see any conflict between the two statements and fully understand the intent.

OB - Why confuse the issue now when there is supposed to be no change

I don’t see any confusion and don’t see any change

 

[crossref]

Well, it's clearly a change as there is a new offence that wasn't there before.

I think you are saying that you would have PK someone for a hand off with excessive force in 2017 and would continue to do so in 2018

I am saying that in 2017 it would never have occurred to me to PK anyone for 'handing off with excessive force' and having considered the novel concept in 2018, I still can't imagine doing it

 

[OB..]

I don’t see any confusion and don’t see any change

The laws following Law 6 have been re-numbered. This is causing errors in reporting red cards - some refs use the old numbering, some the new.

Yes, we can get used to it eventually, but why should we have to? It was easily avoidable.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The laws following Law 6 have been re-numbered. This is causing errors in reporting red cards - some refs use the old numbering, some the new.

Yes, we can get used to it eventually, but why should we have to? It was easily avoidable.

Yep we should have left 7 open as space for new laws. I suggest putting the GATE law there

 

[OB..]

Yep we should have left 7 open as space for new laws. I suggest putting the GATE law there

My preference would be for a law covering transitions between phases.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

I've penalised players many times over the years for a hit to the face exactly how Jolly Roger describes it, a deliberate short jab to the face with the heel of the hand. You can usually spot them a mile off with ball carrier lining up a probably lower skilled player to make himself look a hero.

I always say, that's not a handoff, it's a deliberate hit to the face. It's one of those scenarios when you just know it's wrong and know what the ball carrier is doing.

 

[crossref]

I agree with that.
I would also say .. that's not a handoff , it's a hit . We don't need a new Law for that

It's not a "hand-off with excessive force". Which presumably IS a hand off, but where you push too hard.

 

[Rich_NL]

There's a difference between a shove with the arm and a palm strike. There's also the hand-off that instantly collapses into an elbow drive. Either of those would have been eligible for foul play - striking or dangerous play - in 2017, it's just explicit for excessive force now.

 

[Rich_NL]

I agree with that.
I would also say .. that's not a handoff , it's a hit . We don't need a new Law for that

It's not a hand-off with excessive force. Which presumably IS a hand off, but where you push too hard.

There's a grey area. So if you see a strike, the player says "I was just handing off", it's still a hand-off with excessive force

 

[crossref]

In the same way as Haskell tackled Jamie Roberts with excessive force?
We should have a Law against it

 

[thepercy]

i can't see the point of it, TBH.

if we have this, we should have Laws against tackling with excessive force, scrumming with excessive force and pushing the ball carrier with excessive force.

Also I don't really see how it squares with this..

[LAWS]At first glance it is difficult to find the guiding principles behind a game which, to the casual observer, appears to be a mass of contradictions. It is perfectly acceptable, for example, to be seen to be exerting extreme physical pressure on an opponent in an attempt to gain possession of the ball, but not wilfully or maliciously to inflict injury.[/LAWS]
'
extreme physical pressure is OK, but if you hand-off with 'excessive force' it's a PK

I think we DO have a law for tackling with excessive force:

9.13 (18)

They just use the word "dangerously" which includes excessive force.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I think we DO have a law for tackling with excessive force:

9.13 (18)

They just use the word "dangerously" which includes excessive force.

I agree, Dangerously give a referee plenty of judgement room.

 

[crossref]

Excessive Force is a lot milder than dangerous

Dangerous is always penalised , excessive force not so much