21.4 (f) - Penalty Try

[MiniRef]

"Kick taken in the in-goal. When a penalty or free kick is taken in the team’s in-goal and a defending player by foul play prevents an opponent from scoring a try, a penalty try is awarded."

- please can somebody explain this to me? I assume it's referring to a defending penalty / FK, so why is this explicitly here? Why isn't the general PT statement good enough:

22.4(h) "Penalty try. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored but for foul play by the defending team. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored in a better position but for foul play by the defending team."

Am I missing something?

 

[Davet]

Ground has a 22m deep in goal area.
PK mark say 20m deep in goal
Attackers legally in in-goal by 10m
kick is sliced and travels 12 metres, still in in goal
offside defender prevents attacker grounding the ball

PT awarded...

Or invent your own.

 

[PaulDG]

please can somebody explain this to me? I assume it's referring to a defending penalty / FK, so why is this explicitly here? Why isn't the general PT statement good enough:

I think it's about clarity - Penalty Tries are relatively rare and many refs aren't sure when they should be awarded, just as many teams don't know what to expect when one has been awarded.

(Eg. Does the offender have to be carded? [No.] Can they charge the conversion? [Yes.])

This seems to clarify that there's no second chance here - a defensive offence after a defensive FK/PK is an automatic PT.

Though frankly, it's very hard to come up with scenarios that involve defenders offending immediately after PKs in goal - perhaps a fumbled PK and defenders taking attackers out off the ball as everyone dashes to pick up the fumble? Can't see that happening very often though!

 

[OB..]

Let's just be grateful that the two do not contradict one another.

 

[B52 REF]

deeps-PK mark 20m deep in goal ??? how ?? can't imagine a scenario where it wouldn't always be where play would have restarted (i.e. 5m,22m or centre).

 

[beckett50]

deeps-PK mark 20m deep in goal ??? how ?? can't imagine a scenario where it wouldn't always be where play would have restarted (i.e. 5m,22m or centre).

It was Davet and not Deeps. Just in case you have some snarling ex matelot sending PMs complaining

 

[PaulDG]

deeps-PK mark 20m deep in goal ??? how ?? can't imagine a scenario where it wouldn't always be where play would have restarted (i.e. 5m,22m or centre).

We all used to think that.

Turns out they've changed the Law without pointing it out - defensive PKs & FKs can be marked in-goal.

 

[chbg]

We all used to think that.

Turns out they've changed the Law without pointing it out - defensive PKs & FKs can be marked in-goal.

Wow - live and learn:

Law 21.2(b) 2010 version: When a penalty or free kick is awarded to the defending team in in-goal, the mark for the kick is at the place of infringement. When a penalty or free kick is awarded to the attacking team in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, in line with the place of infringement.
Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum 5 metres from the goal line in line with the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

Not highlighted as a change from 2009 LoG (the inclusion of the first sentence).

So any infringement by defending kicker's team, except for Foul Play preventing a try being scored, results in a 5m attacking scrum.

Previously, although the mark for the PK would have been on the 5m line, the PK could have been taken anywhere behind it on a line through the mark ... by the kamikazi team.:Looser:

 

[Dixie]

So any infringement by defending kicker's team, except for Foul Play preventing a try being scored, results in a 5m attacking scrum.

I guess it's possible you MIGHT encounter a PK offence by the defending side that results not in a PT but a simple PK, and if so the PK is on the 5m line.

As far as I know, the real change in this provision for 2010 is that a PK offence by the attack in in-goal gives rise to a PK at the place of the offence, rather than at the 5m line in line with the offence.

 

[B52 REF]

sorry guys- i knew the law change but just can't imagine a situation where it would occur?? attacker in possession punches a defender before he touches down?? unlikely but suppose a cheap/late shot on a defender touching down would qualify.

 

[the magpie]

(Eg. Does the offender have to be carded? [No.] Can they charge the conversion? [Yes.])

Actually, according to Law 10.2 (a), the offender must be carded:

A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.

 

[PaulDG]

Actually, according to Law 10.2 (a), the offender must be carded:

Yes, that's what it says, but isn't what it means.

The wording, so we're told, was introduced to clarify a previous misunderstanding that the ref couldn't card a player after a PT. It is intended to indicate the possibility of a card.

In reality it comes down to you "managing" it.

If the foul play that gave rise to the PT was something you'd card elsewhere on the pitch, then card it there.

It it wasn't, then don't.

 

[Davet]

sorry guys- i knew the law change but just can't imagine a situation where it would occur?? attacker in possession punches a defender before he touches down?? unlikely but suppose a cheap/late shot on a defender touching down would qualify.

How about:
Attack kick deep into in goal, ball fielded by a defender, attacker charges or tackles dangerously.... PK against attack in in-goal, to be taken at the place of infringement....

I'm sure a little imagination will produce many more scenarios.

 

[OB..]

How about:
Attack kick deep into in goal, ball fielded by a defender, attacker charges or tackles dangerously.... PK against attack in in-goal, to be taken at the place of infringement....

I'm sure a little imagination will produce many more scenarios.

Yes, indeed.

Eg, attacker chips into in-goal. Defender jumps to make a Mark and is tackled in the air.

 

[Dixie]

I'm sure a little imagination will produce many more scenarios.

Defending 15 gets to the bouncing ball fractionally before attacking 14, and tries to ground it over the goal line - upon which #14 kicks it out of his hand.

 

[PaulDG]

We all used to think that.

Turns out they've changed the Law without pointing it out - defensive PKs & FKs can be marked in-goal.

And it now turns out they've changed their minds back again (at least if I've read it right, they have).

See Keith's post.

 

[Dixie]

And it now turns out they've changed their minds back again (at least if I've read it right, they have).

See Keith's post.

wow!