5.7e - ending the match - updated 2010

[Rawling]

I note that the law on when to end a match has been updated in the 2010 Law book:

If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

Much as I applaud any attempt to clarify this law - if it means referees less frequently "steal" the last play by awarding a scrum before time and then blowing up! - I'm worried about the bit in bold.

Does this mean that the referee shouldn't offer an option such as the penalty kick/scrum choice for offside in open play, but should instead end the match?

 

[dave_clark]

there is no option as such - the ref awards the penalty. the team can choose to take a scrum but that's very different to, for example, a scrum for a lineout not straight.

for your second paragraph, no. the game should not end on a penalty. if a side chooses to take a scrum, that's still part of the penalty so game goes on.

muddled words, but i hope it makes sense!

 

[Phil E]

Much as I applaud any attempt to clarify this law - if it means referees less frequently "steal" the last play by awarding a scrum before time and then blowing up!

But the referee (in our matches) is the sole judge of time,s o how would you know he was "stealing the last play"?

 

[Davet]

if it means referees less frequently "steal" the last play by awarding a scrum before time and then blowing up!

I don't understand this.

If a scrum is awarded before time is up then we play the scrum.

It doesn't matter when the players pack down.

So, KO, advantage, advantage, none coming..., <peep> arm out for scrum - that's the award, if that happens on 79:59 we scrum down.

 

[Dixie]

there is no option as such - the ref awards the penalty. the team can choose to take a scrum but that's very different to, for example, a scrum for a lineout not straight.

There certainly is such an option. Blue full back kicks, forward 20m ahead starts running and despite your loud calls is now about to cream the catcher. Whistle - that forward is offside. What do you want Red? PK where the forward started moving forward, or scrum where the FB kicked it? Oops; time's up, game over.

 

[dave_clark]

i duly stand corrected

i'll have to learn these damn laws at some stage

 

[dave_clark]

If a scrum is awarded before time is up then we play the scrum.

It doesn't matter when the players pack down.

ah, yet another difference between elite rugby and the rest of the world i suspect.

 

[Dixie]

Just fired off this question to SA Refs. It's a good spot.

 

[Davet]

I suspect the phrase offer an option is to cover things like not straight at linout.

Play cannot stop on a Penalty, the fact that that penalty itself may involve options is not relevant - it is a penalty.

 

[Dixie]

Play cannot stop on a Penalty, the fact that that penalty itself may involve options is not relevant - it is a penalty.

Except that if the scrum option is taken, it's only a scrum and not a penalty at all. The PK is one of two options; the law now use the term "sanction" instead of penalty, and the sanction for this offence is either a PK or a scrum, at the non-offending side's option.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Just fired off this question to SA Refs. It's a good spot.

Didn't or doesn't "THE"RFU have a Q&A to international refs?

What happened to Spread the Word or Ask Ed?

 

[Dixie]

What happened to Spread the Word or Ask Ed?

Ha Ha Ha! The RFU couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. Just watch us on Saturday.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Ha Ha Ha! The RFU couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. Just watch us on Saturday.

You hit a sore spot. The wife is out of town, I'll mind the kids, can't take kids to the Fados bar and pay $20 to view games. Can't find a streaming site that has the game.

My current option:

We are due for a winter storm Friday night, roads will be poor Saturday morning, bar will be empty due to snowy roads, I've got a Jeep; Chelsea, Celtic, Man U fans will be thinned out, only 1 or 2 O2 jerseys will show up,
feed the kids french fries for 80+ minutes, and get this - cheer for Wales.

Sorry for the tangent / hi jack

 

[Rawling]

ah, yet another difference between elite rugby and the rest of the world i suspect.

Yup... foremost in my mind is the Saxons / Ireland A game I saw at the Rec this weekend.

End of the first half, knock on given with 5-10 seconds remaining (by the clock, admittedly, but I thought the ref was supposed to follow the clock in these things rahter than, say, let a team he told would have time for a lineout after a penalty take the lineout... ), then time expires and the the ref ends the half.

I felt cheated!

Cheers for all the response. Look forward to seeing what SA Refs have to say about this.

 

[Davet]

Except that if the scrum option is taken, it's only a scrum and not a penalty at all. The PK is one of two options; the law now use the term "sanction" instead of penalty, and the sanction for this offence is either a PK or a scrum, at the non-offending side's option.

I suspect you are winding me up.

You cannot serioulsy be suggesting that if the referee blows for Penalty and the side take the scrum option we must blow for time?

That has never been the case.

I think you are trying to point out the idiocy of the wording (AGAIN) - I hope you are not advocating the literal interpretation.

 

[Dixie]

I suspect you are winding me up.

You cannot serioulsy be suggesting that if the referee blows for Penalty and the side take the scrum option we must blow for time?

That has never been the case.

I think you are trying to point out the idiocy of the wording (AGAIN) - I hope you are not advocating the literal interpretation.

I am not winding you up. The sanction for offside in open play is not necessarily a penalty.

There are two possible sanctions, of which only one is a penalty. The other is ascrum, usually closer to the posts. The referee cannot decide which of these will be awarded; that decision lies with the captain of the non-offending team, to whom the referee offers an option. The scrum is not a penalty taken as a scrum; it is a scrum.

The revised 5.7 now clearly tells us that the offering of an option to the skipper after tiem has expired ends the game. No penalty can be awarded until after the offer has been made. Therefore, the game must end before the penalty can be selected.

The pragmatic approach, which I suspect SA Refs will take, is that the offer is live until the decision is made, so if the PK is selected the game continues. But you have to do violence to the obvious meaning of 5.7 in order to get there.

 

[OB..]

I agree the new wording would change past practice.

The notes on the changes make no mention of 5.7 (e), which is covered in the notes on law amendments from Rulings. #3 of 2009 specifically referenced the option of scrum or lineout following not straight at a lineout after time had expired. It would appear the law makers overlooked the penalty or scrum option for offside.

 

[Centaurian]

Isn't it staggering that the IRB issues these clarifications of previously opaque laws without apparently market testing them with the referees who will need to apply them?

Or if they do conduct these focus groups / review panels, who sits on them?

If the laws of the land were written in such a sloppy way the world would be full of lawyers fighting over interpretation .. and we know that is not the case. :chin: SHum mishtake here maybe.

 

[Rawling]

Just fired off this question to SA Refs. It's a good spot.

Sadly not much of a response

The team will be allowed to either take the penalty or the scrum and the next time the ball becomes dead the final whistle will be blown. If the team takes the scrum option and this is followed by a similar scenario it is still not the end of the game and the team will be allowed to carry out their option.

That is, an answer to the question, and the one we expected, but no comment on how poor the new wording is, or why this answer seems to ignore it.

 

[Davet]

But the answer does at least have the merit of being spot on with regard to way that we have always done it and will continue to do it.

As Ronnie Barker sang:
She invited the preacher to her house they say,
She said, it's a party, I'm 19 today.
Ma’s bought me a dress and a bonnet so cute,
So come round and see me in my birthday suit.

We knew what she meant, we knew what she meant,
We heard what she said but we knew what she meant.

Perhaps we should just refer to the iRB as "Pauline"