[Law] Accidental Off-sides? Maybe

[Huck2Spit]

In yesterday's game I think I made bad call:

In open midfield play, blue kicked the ball it was caught by green then Kicked back....many players were off sides and/or retreating (nothing material yet). Blue #9 catches green's kick and then attempts to kick back down field punting the ball right into a blue teammate's backside (who was 2-3 meters in front of the kicker and running backward). It bounces back towards blue #9 and he goes to ground to gather it. I whistled and awarded a green scrum where player was hit in the back for Accidental off-sides.
Should green have had the option of a scrum where Blue 9 kicked or PK where his teammate was hit with ball?
Is it no accident and it's just off-sides?
What's the right call?

 

[Huck2Spit]

OK did a little research after I posted ? and ....

11.6 Accidental offside
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

So then I made the correct call? But Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

You got it right in my opinion. Quick decision . Well done

 

[Pinky]

Fwiw, I think your decision was OK, but there is a distinction between accidental os and os in general play, which normally is a penalty. I tend to reserve accidental os to where the player in front has nothing to do with playing the ball. Like getting hit in the back in your op. Where the player grasps the ball, then I'm thinking penalty.

 

[Pegleg]

If catching the ball is "instinctively" the reaction made close to the previous contact then I'm going accidental and Scrum. You have to have empathy with the players. Judgement call every instance is different.

 

[OB..]

If catching the ball is "instinctively" the reaction made close to the previous contact then I'm going accidental and Scrum. You have to have empathy with the players. Judgement call every instance is different.

There are some instincts you must learn to repress. If the ball comes from a team-mate behind you, it should be second nature to realise you are offside.

Empathy may apply if the player had no way of knowing who played the ball last.

 

[Dickie E]

[LAWS]11.6 Accidental offside
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.[/LAWS]

I wonder what "If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues" means. Blue #9 would have expected to kick the ball 20 - 30 metres downfield and have lost possession but, because of his team mate's bum, gains no ground but has possession. Does this meet the "gains no advantage" test?

 

[OB..]

[LAWS]11.6 Accidental offside
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.[/LAWS]

I wonder what "If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues" means. Blue #9 would have expected to kick the ball 20 - 30 metres downfield and have lost possession but, because of his team mate's bum, gains no ground but has possession. Does this meet the "gains no advantage" test?

No....

 

[Dickie E]

No....

So what would meet it that is not automatically covered by Law 8?

 

[OB..]

So what would meet it that is not automatically covered by Law 8?

One possibility would be that the accidental offside prevented an opponent from catching the ball.

Law 8 applies to a team benefiting from an infringement by an opponent. Accidental offside may be a case of benefiting from your own infringement. More like materiality than advantage.

 

[Dixie]

Hi Huck2Spit - a very warm welcome to these forums. I suspect you are fairly new to this reffing game, and if so you are doubly welcome. We really exist as a forum to help new referees work out the complexities of the skill in a safe environment, and when we have no-one who needs our help we hunker down into technical debates of ever-finer and less-relevant detail. So it's great to have someone asking questions that have a practical aspect - keep them coming. There is no such thing as a silly question.

This question of accidental offside is one that is somewhat subjective (as Craig Joubert found out to his cost yesterday!). At the lowest levels, where the skill set is much lower than even a low-to-mid ranking 1st XV game, it may be unreasonable to ping a player for instinctively grabbing a ball that comes his way with no time to think. At international level, that is a PK 9 times out of 10. There's a continuum between those two extremes, and where your level lies on that continuum is a judgement call - and hopefully one your local support (if you have it) can assist with. From your question, I would imagine that you may award more scrums for accidental offside than a referee with 2 or three years experience - purely because the players you are managing are less skilled.

When a kicker kicks a ball into his team mate's back, that seems to me to be a very powerful indication of accidental offside and a scrum. But if the offside player has looked over his shoulder, raised his hands while surreptitiously moving two steps right so that he gets hit in the back ... PK for being offside in open play and taking part in the game. In that case, then an option applies - either PK where the offside player stepped right, or scrum where the kick occurred.

 

[didds]

and at age grade rugby as I saw yesterday on 3 occasions in the same game (penalised only twice - no advantage etc!) players may be totally ignorant of the law and just catch the ball from a kick ahead, or loiter where the kicked ball is received by an opponent (ie 10m law).

didds

 

[didds]

quick confirmation - under the 10m law the PK option would be

- where the loitering player was standing initially
- where the loitering player affected the game?
- 10m from the receiver nearer the kicker's try line?

didds