Accidental offside in uncontested line-out maul

[Rich_NL]

Red goes up and catches the ball, brought back down and red attempt to set up a maul which blue don't contest.
Ball goes back from the catcher before contact is made, we dutifully shout "use it!" but the pod ends up trundling downfield so we whistle up for a scrum blue.

Where do you give the mark?

I seem to recall learning/reading/seeing a scrum 15 for a technical lineout offence; a ref friend gave it at the point of the offence. When we discussed it, I couldn't find anything to say scrum 15 and thought he was right, but he said he thought on reflection scrum 15 made sense I can't find the clarification/guidance on it.

 

[smeagol]

The mark is at the 15 for offenses within the context of the lineout, IMO in this scenario the lineout is over, so I'm inclined to go with the mark in line with where the BC was.

I had this exact scenario happen last weekend in a 7s event - attacking side had a LO about 10m out. Defending side held their position and never engaged with the pod, and the attackers just trundled.

 

[Stu10]

https://www.armyrugbyunion.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IRB-Clarification-Lineout.pdf

 

[Rich_NL]

The mark is at the 15 for offenses within the context of the lineout, IMO in this scenario the lineout is over, so I'm inclined to go with the mark in line with where the BC was.

So if the ball/pod hasn't left the line of touch, it's on the 15?

https://www.armyrugbyunion.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IRB-Clarification-Lineout.pdf

I don't see an answer there, though?

 

[Stu10]

That's the only related guidance I can find

 

[Dickie E]

So if the ball/pod hasn't left the line of touch, it's on the 15?

but if the pod hasn't left the line of touch, why would you blow the whistle?

 

[Rich_NL]

In a situation where if it were a maul, the offside lines would apply. But fair enough, I wouldn't blow up unless the defenders engaged to draw the scrum.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I'd give the scrum on the 15. That is where the AO first occurred. After all we "let things breathe" all the time.But if we have to blow we aim for where the "offence" occurred.

 

[Flish]

I go on the 15 as I visualise it as a line out offence, but I can’t see anyone grumbling too much if you where the maul was

 

[didds]

just one of those "manage it" situations I suspect.
tactically it COULD make a difference as the blind side of the scrum may be ~13m wide in one situation and effectively non-existant in another - but i doubt anybody is going to have any better idea than the ref anyway ;-)

 

[Balones]

I was told it was on the spot. This video isn’t an uncontested lineout but it shows WB moving to where the ‘accident’ happened.

Law Application Guidelines | World Rugby Laws

Law application guidelines for the game of rugby union.

www.world.rugby

 

[smeagol]

So if the ball/pod hasn't left the line of touch, it's on the 15?

I see it as a "open play" offense.

LO is over once the ball is moved 1m from the LoT.
After said movement, if the defenders have legally chosen not to engage, attackers have to use it.

Because the LO is over, the "mark for LO offense is at the 15m" is irrelevant.

 

[Stu10]

I see it as a "open play" offense.

LO is over once the ball is moved 1m from the LoT.
After said movement, if the defenders have legally chosen not to engage, attackers have to use it.

Because the LO is over, the "mark for LO offense is at the 15m" is irrelevant.

I agree with this... the easy mistake is to think the ball has not left the lineout yet because all of the feet of all of the players in the maul have not moved beyond the mark of touch, but this isn't actually a maul.

 

[Rich_NL]

So if the ball hasn't left the LoT but they don't use it, scrum 15?

If the ball left the lineout by being passed back, should you ping the player it's been passed back to for leaving the lineout first?

 

[Stu10]

So if the ball hasn't left the LoT but they don't use it, scrum 15?

If the ball left the lineout by being passed back, should you ping the player it's been passed back to for leaving the lineout first?

I'm not sure you would have a situation when the ball does not leave the LoT and the opposition don't engage... that is basically everyone just stood looking at each other! In this scenario the ball has not been passed back, and is therefore with the man "at the front", but he has decided not to run up the pitch, and the defence have decided not to tackle him

I would not award a penalty against the player for leaving the lineout early to form a maul because that's a very reasonable thing to do and you don't want to create a scenario where a team is afraid to setup a maul... this would be a negative situation, which we don't want to encourage. In the same spirit, if they get the ball to the back man in this situation then we first give opportunity to use it rather than instantly blow for accidental obstruction.

 

[Rich_NL]

The question regards the ball being passed back before contact is made, so I don't follow 'In this scenario the ball has not been passed back, and is therefore with the man "at the front"'.

I agree re: not pinging, my point being that we don't judge the ball to have left the lineout.

 

[Stu10]

Sorry, getting confusing.

If passed back, had the person that gets the ball moved to form a maul or peeled to be a receiver and it's in motion... Either of these scenarios is ok IMHO.