[Scrum] Advantage close to full time

[DocY]

Here's the situation:

Reds are winning close to full time and blue knock on (or commit some other infringement leading to a scrum) with the ball in Red's position and advantage being played.

With my scrum half's hat on, this is pretty much game over. Have the forwards keep hold of the ball in the usual 'wait as long as possible, pick up, take a step, form a new ruck' way. If the ball's knocked on it's a red scrum, if it isn't it's going to be FT.

It's not something I've really come across as a referee (not having a big clock helps with that), but would anyone manage the advantage differently in this situation than in the middle of the game?

If this happened with plenty of time to spare I'd probably say not going anywhere, no advantage and take the scrum, but I'm conflicted about this happening right at the end.

Sure, eating up time is a tactical advantage, but I don't think it's really in the spirit of the law.

 

[crossref]

[LAWS]8.1 Advantage in practice
(a) The referee is sole judge of whether or not a team has gained an advantage. The referee has wide discretion when making decisions.
(b) Advantage can be either territorial or tactical.
(c) Territorial advantage means a gain in ground.
(d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.[/LAWS]

so if what they wish is secure, calm possession that they can safely recycle a few times to use up them, then once they have that possession secured, I'd say you can call advantage over.

 

[Christy]

Hi peoples.
Reds are winning & realistically im assuming looking for the game to end.
If we talking with in dying seconds of game.
Would it be wrong to say ,,lads we are in last play..
( thus assuming reds will kick ball off park ,,hoping an aussie water boy doesnt flick it back on ,,sorry )

I have often finished 1st & 2nd half with those words.
Last play.
Regardless , of weather i am playing advantage for knock on / similar..

I suppose if there maybe 40 secs left./ or more
And if playing advantage.
Its possibly something for reds to worry about & not you the ref.

Im sure if they want the scrum , they will fumble their own ball , to force their scrum with their put in.
With view on keeping ball in posetion from scrum , for scrum half to kick off
( for an aussie water boy to catch & run in & score a try )
Sorry its my sense of humour in relation to aussie water boy.
Its a good question & im sure will be an interesting thread.

 

[thepercy]

Same situation, hooter goes, "Sir, we don't want advantage" Peep, game over?

 

[Staffs_Ref]

You don't say quite how close to full time it is, DocY, but I can't imagine that I would let a scrum advantage run on overly long (as opposed to a penalty advantage), as that would not be consistent with the way I would have been applying it throughout the match. If we were a matter of seconds away from time, then I would let it run those extra few seconds, but otherwise I think I would blow up for the scrum. Red are going to have the put in anyway and are therefore likely to win it. If we were that close to time prior to the scrum being called, then time is likely to have elapsed by the time the scrum is over and the scrum half can boot the ball into touch and end the game.

 

[DocY]

Thanks all,

I was deliberately vague about exactly how long was left. I suppose my question could have been "how much time used up constitutes advantage?".

I see Staffs' argument, but I'd be reluctant to have a scrum without a good reason. Though that very much depends on how long's left.

I suppose to gain an advantage they would have had to hold on to the ball for as long as a scrum would have taken had I blown immediately. Though that given them the option of playing for 10 seconds and deliberately knocking-on, eking out a bit more time.

Obviously this isn't going to be an issue if you've called 'last play', but competent players can often keep the ball alive for a few minutes at a time, so calling last play isn't always an option.

 

[DocY]

Same situation, hooter goes, "Sir, we don't want advantage" Peep, game over?

That's an interesting point.

I wouldn't allow that - if the infringement happened before the hooter and they didn't gain advantage (and I'd consider kicking it out to be advantage) we'd have the scrum. Not sure how I'd manage it if they did ask for the scrum, mind.

 

[Ian_Cook]

The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

 

[FlipFlop]

Given my games don't have a big clock (or at least one that is anyway close to accurate).

Knock on close to the end of time (such that this is a potential play). Peep. Knock on. Peeep peep peep. Game over.

Nothing to be gained over those few seconds. End the game.

 

[DocY]

The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

No, but what constitutes advantage can vary a lot throughout the game. Picking and going with no intention of gaining ground would not, to me, be advantageous in the 27th minute (and if they did this, I'd probably conclude that they wanted the scrum and just had a funny way of asking for it), but could be in the 80th.

 

[DocY]

Given my games don't have a big clock (or at least one that is anyway close to accurate).

Knock on close to the end of time (such that this is a potential play). Peep. Knock on. Peeep peep peep. Game over.

Nothing to be gained over those few seconds. End the game.

Quite so - it's not something I anticipate having to deal with accurately any time soon (I was actually thinking about the end of the Wales-England WC game when writing it), but I thought it could be an interesting discussion.

 

[Decorily]

Hi peoples.

Would it be wrong to say ,,lads we are in last play..


I have often finished 1st & 2nd half with those words.
Last play.

Christy, I would strongly advise against the use of the words "last play", I personally use the phrase 'Time is expired' in this situation.

The reason I feel 'last play' is inappropriate is because we do not know that it is in fact last play!

If for instance you award a penalty after calling 'last play' the game can continue for any period of time and could result in a score many phases later that changes the result that would have been expected when last play was called.

It can lead to confusion and whispers of unfairness!!

 

[Pegleg]

You have the watch. So time is your call. Also, you are the sole judge of what constitutes advantage. If they have the ball and can run down the clock that is a tactical advantage for me. If they successfully set up one ruck / maul and recycle the ball, they have had all the advantage they would normally get from a scum (unless forced well backwards) so call it over. They can then decide how to progress from there. But it's your call (sorry if that does not really help but that's why we are there.). I guess the best thing to do is ask your self the question "Would I be happy with this much advantage if I was the side playing advantage?"

 

[Pegleg]

Given my games don't have a big clock (or at least one that is anyway close to accurate).

Knock on close to the end of time (such that this is a potential play). Peep. Knock on. Peeep peep peep. Game over.

Nothing to be gained over those few seconds. End the game.

Are you sure? Position (score and territorially) may change that assessment. Time for a scrum 6 or 7 meters out in a 12-10 game. Scrum against the head and its drop goal and suddenly it's a 12-13 win for the other side. Nothing to be gained? I'd agree if it was 25-7 or such.

 

[Pegleg]

The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

Spot on.

 

[Pegleg]

Hi peoples.

Would it be wrong to say ,,lads we are in last play..


I have often finished 1st & 2nd half with those words.
Last play.

Christy, I would strongly advise against the use of the words "last play", I personally use the phrase 'Time is expired' in this situation.

The reason I feel 'last play' is inappropriate is because we do not know that it is in fact last play!

If for instance you award a penalty after calling 'last play' the game can continue for any period of time and could result in a score many phases later that changes the result that would have been expected when last play was called.

It can lead to confusion and whispers of unfairness!!

Indeed. How many of us have been caught out with this one? "last play ......Unless blah blah blah". Carefull with choice of wording. You can dig a hole for yourself. "We have time to take the line out / scrum". Care too with: "There's time for the line out AFTER the Penalty" as well. Stick to "5 seconds left Red Weslh) 10." !) asks "is ther time for the line out after the kick to touch sir?" Ref " 4 Seconds now red. YOUR call There may not be time for a line out!"

 

[Camquin]

I thought there was a trial that there was always time for the line out following a penalty.

 

[crossref]

The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

the difference is that advantage can be tactical, and what amounts to a tactical advantage will vary according to context.

What is tactical advatage?

[LAWS]8.1 (d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish[/LAWS]

In this context - if all that they wish is to set up a nice, secure, tidy ruck with the ball safely available so that they can repeat until time expires then. if they have achieved that, got then why not call advantage over, and let them get on with it...

 

[Pegleg]

I'm guessing Ian Cook means that you apply the same criteria. That is: "Is there a tactical or territorial advantage for the non offenders?" Your answer to that question may be different at different stages of the game or in different parts of the field.

 

[Ian_Cook]

the difference is that advantage can be tactical, and what amounts to a tactical advantage will vary according to context.

What is tactical advatage?

[LAWS]8.1 (d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish[/LAWS]

There is an expression you hear elite referees use "No advantage - always under pressure". They usually use it when the team have managed to clear the ruck, but has not been able to get the ball wide of the ruck because of opposition pressure by, for example, rush defence.

In this context -

We've had this debate before in the "knock-on into in-goal" thread. There is no mention of "context" in Law 8. Either a team has gained an advantage or they haven't.

if all that they wish is to set up a nice, secure, tidy ruck with the ball safely available so that they can repeat until time expires then. if they have achieved that, got then why not call advantage over, and let them get on with it...

Now, provided that is how you managed pick and drive under advantage earleir in the game, then that's OK at 79:50. The players will know how you managed the advantage earlier in the game, and they have every right to expect you to manage it the same way at the end of the game. If you manage it differently, then you are committing the biggest sin a referee can commit, inconsistency!