[Law] Application of Laws

[BikingBud]

Catching up and watching the Eng girls v Italy from the weekend. It is telling that all the things that are accepted violations in the men's game are being actively managed in the girl's game.

The ref is picking up the offside line effectively especially at rucks and scrums. People in front of the kicker are being pinged. Joining the rucks from the side etc, all the cynical little niggles do not appear to be allowed.

The only difference I could possibly apply is the consideration of materiality, you could see arguments, from some, to say the girls should be given a little more leeway to ensure the game is attractive. Yet the spectacle is enthralling, the skill levels and commitment are high on both sides. A sure advert for a better game.

Can we have this for the men's game as well please?

 

[Decorily]

Catching up and watching the Eng girls v Italy from the weekend. It is telling that all the things that are accepted violations in the men's game are being actively managed in the girl's game.

The ref is picking up the offside line effectively especially at rucks and scrums. People in front of the kicker are being pinged. Joining the rucks from the side etc, all the cynical little niggles do not appear to be allowed.

The only difference I could possibly apply is the consideration of materiality, you could see arguments, from some, to say the girls should be given a little more leeway to ensure the game is attractive. Yet the spectacle is enthralling, the skill levels and commitment are high on both sides. A sure advert for a better game.

Can we have this for the men's game as well please?

I presume you are referring to the Women as opposed to Girls!

 

[crossref]

Catching up and watching the Eng girls v Italy from the weekend. It is telling that all the things that are accepted violations in the men's game are being actively managed in the girl's game.

The ref is picking up the offside line effectively especially at rucks and scrums. People in front of the kicker are being pinged. Joining the rucks from the side etc, all the cynical little niggles do not appear to be allowed.

The only difference I could possibly apply is the consideration of materiality, you could see arguments, from some, to say the girls should be given a little more leeway to ensure the game is attractive. Yet the spectacle is enthralling, the skill levels and commitment are high on both sides. A sure advert for a better game.

Can we have this for the men's game as well please?

Perhaps the ref thinks of them as "girls" rather than as professional athletes

(did he also make the captains play RPS)

 

[DocY]

The only difference I could possibly apply is the consideration of materiality, you could see arguments, from some, to say the girls should be given a little more leeway to ensure the game is attractive. Yet the spectacle is enthralling, the skill levels and commitment are high on both sides. A sure advert for a better game.

Maybe the game is attractive because they enforce the laws properly!

 

[belladonna]

Same goes for U20's 6N - a much more attractive and entertaining spectacle.

 

[Zebra1922]

Perhaps the ref thinks of them as "girls" rather than as professional athletes

(did he also make the captains play RPS)

Give the fella a break, maybe a poor choice of words but the post overall was very positive about both the quality and entertainment factor of the women game and the way it is refereed. I prefer to focus on that rather than and possibly ill-advised word choice.

 

[crossref]

Give the fella a break, maybe a poor choice of words but the post overall was very positive about both the quality and entertainment factor of the women game and the way it is refereed. I prefer to focus on that rather than and possibly ill-advised word choice.

It's actually important.
I know you can't see that - and neither can OB - but that you can't see it is right at the heart of the battle women face.

Simon posted something very eloquent on the RPS thread, the last time we discussed male attitudes to women's rugby

I'm wary to tread in here, but...

This is the top tier of domestic Women's Football, a game that still struggles to get taken seriously. It's an issue that a lot of women playing what have traditionally been seen as "men's" sports face. We still have referees over here who patronize women players, insist on coaching them despite the fact that they are National D1 Final Four and better players than he a referee, and make "safety" based decisions that don't apply to the men's games they do.

does that sound a bit like the situation in the OP ?

No doubt everyone will gleefully tell me the game in the OP had a female ref. But I am not sure that makes a difference.

QUESTION : are women's elite games reffed differently from men's elite games ? If so why?

 

[Rich_NL]

Maybe because viewers are fewer and more likely to appreciate rugby, rather than having to pander to "big hits" and "free-flowing play" that the public demand of the modern men's game? The latter is singularly different from women's, U20, age grade and grassroots rugby.

Different doesn't have to mean inferior. Perhaps it should just be made clear that tier 1 men's rugby is not a pinnacle towards which all others should aspire, but an interesting populist sideshow.

 

[BikingBud]

It's actually important.
I know you can't see that - and neither can OB - but that you can't see it is right at the heart of the battle women face.

Simon posted something very eloquent on the RPS thread, the last time we discussed male attitudes to women's rugby



does that sound a bit like the situation in the OP ?

No doubt everyone will gleefully tell me the game in the OP had a female ref. But I am not sure that makes a difference.

QUESTION : are women's elite games reffed differently from men's elite games ? If so why?

Not sure what your beef is CR but lads and lasses, chaps and chapesses, girls and boys or men and women, if I was meaning under 20s or possibly even younger then I would have made that distinction. I am sure most others would quickly realise that if I was watching a match from the weekend that had been televised that is was probably not age grade rugby. In fact I would be interested to know what other Lady's (happier with that term) rugby is televised. 6 Nations game abroad are not always televised live.

But you haven't answered the question just asked it again, well done:shrug:

Also not sure what you are referring to regarding RPS as with out a link to review the context it doesn't really mean much at all:shrug:

If you are trying to insinuate that my comments in some way undermine the application, prowess, strength, efforts, skills and capability of the girls to engage in a fantastic game that provides excellent entertainment then you are well wide of the mark:chin:

So thanks for your efforts in progressing the discussion:clap:

 

[BikingBud]

Maybe because viewers are fewer and more likely to appreciate rugby, rather than having to pander to "big hits" and "free-flowing play" that the public demand of the modern men's game? The latter is singularly different from women's, U20, age grade and grassroots rugby.

Different doesn't have to mean inferior. Perhaps it should just be made clear that tier 1 men's rugby is not a pinnacle towards which all others should aspire, but an interesting populist sideshow.

Oh there were big hits a plenty both from attackers and defenders. As there has been throughout the girls 6 Nations competition.

Also some of the free flowing and instinctive heads up running rugby would put the kicking display that left England floundering in the last 20 mins against Wales to shame.

Watching a tight head prop catch the ball behind her in one hand and then accelerate and leave the full back flat footed with a great side step was a sight to behold. Shame the lads couldn't find the skill, ability and inspiration to deliver the same type of game:hap:

 

[crossref]

Not sure what your beef is CR :

Just that it's condescending to call international rugby players 'girls'

Lady's (happier with that term

You are doubling down .. which makes me think it was deliberate..


The word you are looking for is 'women'

 

[menace]

Just that it's condescending to call international rugby players 'girls'



You are doubling down .. which makes me think it was deliberate..


The word you are looking for is 'women'

I call them "ladies" on the field (and yes that's even to some of the elite Australian rep players I've had the fortune to referee that play community in between rep duties).

Sh!t - does that also make me a misogynist pig now?

Note to self: Next time I'm talking to Louise Burrows - I'll ask her how we should address them. I'll let you know CR.

 

[belhysys]

Forgettimg the PC police of girl / lady / women... maybe we should call them athletes so it is gender neutral ?!.....
I only reffed girls, ie U 16 and U18 and low level, and i do find a real difference with boys. Not in term of quality, sills or commitments but physical agressivity. They are doing big hits as the boys, run straight at opposition as the boys but without the alpha male attitude (if that s make any sense). It is done because it is required not because they want to smash. Overall the game to be a lot more flowing.

and my first sentence in my pre game speech is sorry if I call you boys, I tend to ref them more often and during the game I might call you boys. Everybody smiles and then we forget about gender....

 

[crossref]

.

and my first sentence in my pre game speech is sorry if I call you boys, I tend to ref them more often and during the game I might call you boys. Everybody smiles and then we forget about gender....

I suspect that their perception of this surprising approach is somewhat different from yours!

 

[crossref]

?

Note to self: Next time I'm talking to Louise Burrows - I'll ask her how we should address them. I'll let you know CR.

Yes please, do ask her about how she feels when journalists or officials refer to female players in the third person as girls. As that's where we started from .

Genuinely it would be interesting to hear her thoughts, rather than me mansplaining it everyone

As to how you address female players on the pitch , I don't have a view as cultural norms are different in each country, but to me Ladies sounds fine. Refs in England often use Gentlemen, which is equivalent.

Certainly I think female players on field would rather be addressed as ' Ladies' than 'boys' !

 

[Flish]

Hmm, I can understand girls vs women, I wouldn’t use girls, but I would think ladies is ok, it’s a term used at my club and it’s the phrase I use on pitch - is there some nuance i’m missing?

 

[crossref]

Hmm, I can understand girls vs women, I wouldn’t use girls, but I would think ladies is ok, it’s a term used at my club and it’s the phrase I use on pitch - is there some nuance i’m missing?

"ladies" just like "gentlemen" works well on field as a form of address. It sounds respectful , especially appropriate in a context where they are calling you Sir.

But less well (in both cases) when used to refer to groups of players in the third person. In that context it doesn't always sound respectful.

(caveat in English context. The same words may have different connotations in different countries)

 

[OB..]

Just that it's condescending to call international rugby players 'girls'

The terminology in the female game is convoluted.

My club has a Ladies team (that term is in its official name). Our (female) vice chair will often talk at meetings about recruiting more "girls". The RFU formally refers to Women's rugby and the Women's Six Nations teams are all labelled "Women", but in the Women's Leagues, the overwhelming club preference is to call the teams Ladies.

I will go along with whatever they prefer, but I note that we often say "Come on, boys" when referring to the England (men's) team without anyone seeing that as condescending.

 

[Camquin]

Anyway getting back to the origianl question, would actually applying the law in the men's game - as it is in other forms of the game - lead to a more attractive product?

 

[BikingBud]

The terminology in the female game is convoluted.

My club has a Ladies team (that term is in its official name). Our (female) vice chair will often talk at meetings about recruiting more "girls". The RFU formally refers to Women's rugby and the Women's Six Nations teams are all labelled "Women", but in the Women's Leagues, the overwhelming club preference is to call the teams Ladies.

I will go along with whatever they prefer, but I note that we often say "Come on, boys" when referring to the England (men's) team without anyone seeing that as condescending.

The terminology in dealing across genders is convoluted across all areas of our lives but if I wanted a discussion about correct gender terminology and how some people may consider some terms and references condescending then I would go to another site entirely:shrug:

I was interested in the perspective of rugby referees in how the laws of the same game were applied differently to different participants but thanks once again for progressing the discussion CR your contribution is beyond value:chin: