[Ruck] Are no 1's actions now illegal with new ruck definition?

[didds]

had that right knee been still on floor , i would of blown for playing ball whilst off your feet .

So you would ping a #9 with a knee on the floor that picks the ball out of a standard ruck with lot of bodies?

didds

 

[crossref]

I was trying to escape from the specific OP and focus on the generalised Law question --
-- when a mono ruck happens, it creates offside lines
-- do the offside lines apply to the ball carrier, when he/she gets up?

 

[beckett50]

So, tackled player sets the ball back. Teammate arrives and stops over the ball then picks up the ball and goes forward. Has a mono-ruck formed? Have off-side lines been established?

If the arriving player scoops up the ball and doesn't stop then we have a tackle but no ruck. But what if he momentarily stops? How quick is 'immediate'? Can he still pick up the ball until an opponent joins?

This seems like a very fuzzy area.

ChrisR and fellow learned friends. Please STOP dancing on pin heads and semantics.

The meaning of the WR is clear and is designed to prevent the practice that was displayed by the Italians during the 6N of 2017.

In essence, when ANY player presents over the ball after a tackle the off-side lines are established - as per a ruck. The tackler now has to come through the gate before challenging for the ball.

A true RUCK is formed as per the 'old' Laws when two players are in contact over the ball, and contest by hands must cease.

However, in relation to the last point, if the first arriving player is trying to secure the ball from the tackled player I would (respectfully) suggest that you pause and see if the player wins the ball. Last thing you want to do (at this stage of the phase of play) is call "RUCK!" and for the first player to stand up with the ball in his/her hands! Let it breath. Know when not to blow.

Yes, it is true that the phraseology used by WR could have been better, but one needs to understand the reasons and thinking behind they have made the change.

The same is true for the tackler having to go through the gate. How many times have we had 'debates' as to who was the tackler and who the tackler assist? Easy solution now. They both have to go through the gate )

Simples IMHO

 

[Christy]

So you would ping a #9 with a knee on the floor that picks the ball out of a standard ruck with lot of bodies?

didds

Hi didds .
No thats a different scenario . ( isnt it ? )
Black 1 who if we agree was TACKLED , im simply saying she cant regather ball if her knee was on floor . She would or should be penalised under this years & last years laws .
.

If she simply falls to floor & gets up with ball , for me play on even with knee on floor in general play ( providing she is not stopping opposition from legally picking up ball )

And no i would not be looking to ping scrum half for passing a ball , with knee on floor .
Under normal circamstances . .

I was simply shaing my visial view , that she was very on edge of laws .

To be honest , i wonder was placing ball forward a stroke of genious or was it accidental .
Had she placed it back like most of us would , she would of had to of rolled away .
Me thinks she new what she was doing & well done kiwi #1

 

[crossref]

going back the the OP, and the issue raised there

- ball carrier on ground
- ball carrier's team mate arrives and forms mono-ruck with offside line at back foot
- ball carrier gets back to his feet, in front of his offside line ... does the offside line apply to him

I've had a chance to raise that in real life conversations with senior people, and found by no means the same unanimity as expressed here.
- Some think offside line doesn't apply, ball carrier can get to his feet and grab the ball
- Others think offside line does apply, ball carrier has to retreat behind it, and come in from the back of the mono-ruck

it's something that might be worth pursuing to get an official view.

 

[ChuckieB]

going back the the OP, and the issue raised there

- ball carrier on ground
- ball carrier's team mate arrives and forms mono-ruck with offside line at back foot
- ball carrier gets back to his feet, in front of his offside line ... does the offside line apply to him

I've had a chance to raise that in real life conversations with senior people, and found by no means the same unanimity as expressed here.
- Some think offside line doesn't apply, ball carrier can get to his feet and grab the ball
- Others think offside line does apply, ball carrier has to retreat behind it, and come in from the back of the mono-ruck

it's something that might be worth pursuing to get an official view.

Good luck to the bc getting to his feet with a team mate astride him. Not sure it something you would be looking to add to the coaching manual. Surely better to coach the Mono-rucker to take the ball to keep momentum.

Another question that came up in training I was watching the other night was when the tackle resulted in a "long" pencil set rather than a jack knife type set. It's going to be pretty interesting to consider a tackler getting to his feet and retreating much further to what could be a very narrow gate?

Might it change the way tacklers are coached in the way they present the ball?

 

[didds]

I'd presume that coahcing would offer the tackle-and-stand as one option amongst many. Which wouldn't include tackle-long pencil-and-stand, as amongst other things the tackled player will be facing the worng way when stood to take the ball.

The examples in the recent WRWC would be the "expected" use of this tactic, which would be based on making a decsion prior to the actual tackle as to what outcome is preferred. eg entering inevitable contact - no other defenders close - fall forward in tackle . Lots of defenders close... present with long pencil etc

didds

 

[OB..]

going back the the OP, and the issue raised there

- ball carrier on ground
- ball carrier's team mate arrives and forms mono-ruck with offside line at back foot
- ball carrier gets back to his feet, in front of his offside line ... does the offside line apply to him

I've had a chance to raise that in real life conversations with senior people, and found by no means the same unanimity as expressed here.
- Some think offside line doesn't apply, ball carrier can get to his feet and grab the ball
- Others think offside line does apply, ball carrier has to retreat behind it, and come in from the back of the mono-ruck

it's something that might be worth pursuing to get an official view.

At our last meeting a panel ref and a panel AR passed on what they had been told: the tackler must get to his feet and enter the tackle zone through the gate.

That is official enough for me.

 

[crossref]

At our last meeting a panel ref and a panel AR passed on what they had been told: the tackler must get to his feet and enter the tackle zone through the gate.

That is official enough for me.

For the tackler, certainly, that's clear , but is that the same for the ball carrier after a mono ruck has formed above him

 

[Pegleg]

For the tackler, certainly, that's clear , but is that the same for the ball carrier after a mono ruck has formed above him

It would be illogical not to treat the ball carrier in the same way. Until told to do anything differently that is how I'll referee it.

 

[crossref]

It would be illogical not to treat the ball carrier in the same way. Until told to do anything differently that is how I'll referee it.

I tend to agree .. as per my post #3 and indeed Ian post #2
But the overwhelming view on this thread was that cannot be what the Lawmakers intended..

 

[ChuckieB]

If the tackled player is already also required to roll away, he can hardly be expected to be awarded any preferential rights as regards making an attempt to recover it.

 

[Taff]

Under the new laws, I understand that you can pick up the ball as long as there is no contact with an opponent.

Exactly what we have been told. Effectively until there is an opponent in physical contact, the person forming the "mono-ruck" can jackle / poach the ball.