At a ruck, when would the team last moving forward not be the attacking team also?

[jdeagro]

An unplayable tackle or ruck...The team last moving forward. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team.

I can't say I've seen this one called much, so never put much thought to it before. But what does "the last team moving forward" actually mean at a ruck for example?

Is it the last team to advance the ball forward before the ruck began?

Or does it mean the team who last was moving forward via driving through the ruck itself?

Or is it the last team literally who advanced forward (regardless of who was in possession of the ball) before the ruck began?...if it's this one, would that mean a turnover ball could happen? E.g. a defending team that continued to cause the attacking team to move backwards before the ruck established would then get the put in at the scrum?

 

[SimonSmith]

Definitions:
Attacking team: The opposition to the team in whose half play is taking place.

 

[jdeagro]

Definitions:
Attacking team: The opposition to the team in whose half play is taking place.

Thanks, that's helpful. Still unsure on what is meant by "the last team moving forward" at a ruck though.

 

[Dickie E]

At an unplayable ruck, the ball is certain to be stationary under a pile of bodies. The answer to your question is "in which direction was the ball moving prior to it becoming stationary"?
9 times out of 10 the team in possession will be the team moving forward. 1 time out of 10 the ball carrier will be driven backwards prior to going to ground and ball becoming stationary.

 

[jdeagro]

At an unplayable ruck, the ball is certain to be stationary under a pile of bodies. The answer to your question is "in which direction was the ball moving prior to it becoming stationary"?
9 times out of 10 the team in possession will be the team moving forward. 1 time out of 10 the ball carrier will be driven backwards prior to going to ground and ball becoming stationary.

Interesting, I think I understand all of that. Seems a little overly complicated (and under worded in the law book) though. It's especially interesting that a defending team in possession of the ball would be forced to turn it over should they get in an unplayable ruck that occurred after being tackled behind the gain line.

 

[Dickie E]

Interesting, I think I understand all of that. Seems a little overly complicated (and under worded in the law book) though. It's especially interesting that a defending team in possession of the ball would be forced to turn it over should they get in an unplayable ruck that occurred after being tackled behind the gain line.

Not quite. It would only be a turnover if they were physically driven back immediately prior to the unplayable situation. This is reasonable as the dominant team should get the benefit. Assuming we have a common understanding of what gain line is, gain line is not relevant

 

[Decorily]

Definitions:
Attacking team: The opposition to the team in whose half play is taking place.

Which team is in possession of the ball is irrelevant.

 

[crossref]

The Law Book should get rid of the concept of attacking and defending teams . WR themselves often forget, and don't always use those terms as defined in the Law Book

 

[Volun-selected]

I agree, most of the time the team running the ball up the pitch will be awarded the scrum. But I’m reminded of what I’ve seen when a ruck forms over a ball that was on the floor due to a spilt pass or similar rather than due to a tackled player going to ground.

Red team were advancing up the field and are in Blue’s half. They then mess up a pass back and both teams engage over the exposed ball on the floor. Blue then start to drive over before everyone piles in for an impromptu 30-player blob.

Although Red advanced the ball and are the attacking team, Blue were moving forward when the ball became unplayable and I award Blue the scrum.

If Blue and Red engaged and the ball didn’t move, Red gets the scrum since they were moving the ball forward even if their last move was a backward spill.

 

[jdeagro]

SimonSmith said:
Definitions:
Attacking team: The opposition to the team in whose half play is taking place.

Which team is in possession of the ball is irrelevant.

Yes, in regards to the attacking team, but we're talking about "the team last moving forward" which is a different classification than the attacking team. It sounds like, at least per Dickie, that the direction of the ball determines which team was moving forward (and regardless of who is in possession of that ball).

 

[jdeagro]

Not quite. It would only be a turnover if they were physically driven back immediately prior to the unplayable situation. This is reasonable as the dominant team should get the benefit.

Physically driven back how? In the ruck that became unplayable? In a tackle that occurred just prior to the unplayable ruck, that occurred behind where the ball was last previously played?

Assuming we have a common understanding of what gain line is, gain line is not relevant

Yea, sorry for lack of better wording. Hopefully you understood what I was trying to say.

 

[jdeagro]

I agree, most of the time the team running the ball up the pitch will be awarded the scrum. But I’m reminded of what I’ve seen when a ruck forms over a ball that was on the floor due to a spilt pass or similar rather than due to a tackled player going to ground.

Red team were advancing up the field and are in Blue’s half. They then mess up a pass back and both teams engage over the exposed ball on the floor. Blue then start to drive over before everyone piles in for an impromptu 30-player blob.

Although Red advanced the ball and are the attacking team, Blue were moving forward when the ball became unplayable and I award Blue the scrum.

If Blue and Red engaged and the ball didn’t move, Red gets the scrum since they were moving the ball forward even if their last move was a backward spill.

So in your example where Blue gets the scrum, you're saying you do base "moving forward" on what happens at the ruck as well? If one team drives the ruck forward, they become the last team who was moving forward?

And in your following scenario where Red gets the scrum, you're saying it doesn't matter how the ball was last played (e.g. went backwards and to the ground / no gain in ground for the Red team immediately before the unplayable ruck), because Blue didn't physically cause Red to move backwards, they were generally moving forwards in this context?

 

[Volun-selected]

So in your example where Blue gets the scrum, you're saying you do base "moving forward" on what happens at the ruck as well? If one team drives the ruck forward, they become the last team who was moving forward?

And in your following scenario where Red gets the scrum, you're saying it doesn't matter how the ball was last played (e.g. went backwards and to the ground / no gain in ground for the Red team immediately before the unplayable ruck), because Blue didn't physically cause Red to move backwards, they were generally moving forwards in this context?

Pretty much. For me it’s the context of the game. Apart from kicking we advance by passing the ball back so it’s the overall flow of the game - the team is moving forward even if intermittently the ball goes backwards in the process (gotta love this game…)

Ball spilt backwards, if Red get there and at least hold firm then they as a team are still in control so have possession and were the last moving forward. If Blue get in, legally disrupt and start to drive over, they have taken control and are now moving forward and are in possession. If Blue get in but don’t get control, and we end up a big blob then last team moving forward remains Red.

This works for me as the single pair of eyes in the middle.

 

[crossref]

Pretty much. For me it’s the context of the game. Apart from kicking we advance by passing the ball back so it’s the overall flow of the game - the team is moving forward even if intermittently the ball goes backwards in the process (gotta love this game…)

Ball spilt backwards, if Red get there and at least hold firm then they as a team are still in control so have possession and were the last moving forward. If Blue get in, legally disrupt and start to drive over, they have taken control and are now moving forward and are in possession. If Blue get in but don’t get control, and we end up a big blob then last team moving forward remains Red.

This works for me as the single pair of eyes in the middle.

Sounds like you are defining the team in possession though

(who will, let's face it, normally be moving forward)

 

[Volun-selected]

Sounds like you are defining the team in possession though

(who will, let's face it, normally be moving forward)

Generally, yes. When it’s a loose ball, then who controls the ball becomes a factor - and by driving over in my example, the other team has taken control of the ball to be considered in possession.

 

[Dickie E]

There you go. 73rd minute. English player wraps up Arg SH and drives towards Arg goal line. Resulting unplayable ruck given to Arg but I would have given it to England.
Never been a fan of The Hatchet

 

[Pinky2]

Agree with Dickie, I was surprised when he awarded the scrum for unplayable to the team who originally had possession although they were going backwards