[Scrum] Back row angle at scrum

[Zebra1922]

Had a game recently where one team was clearly dominating in the scrum - result lots of penalties against the dominated scrum for various offences, usually collapsing, standing up, not driving straight etc. once they started going backwards.

The coach of this team was adamant the offence was caused by the dominant scrum flanker binding at an angle and ending up pushing against the opposition prop. I did not see this happen, but I've been thinking through the mechanics to see what the offence would be.

I know a flanker can bind at any angle (but not change that angle to obstruct the SH, not a problem in this case as it was the far side flanker). So let's assume they are angling into the scrum. They push their prop at an angle, and as far as I can tell the most visible impact of this would be his prop appearing to bore in or not drive straight, so I would penalise the prop for not driving straight.

Could I penalise the flanker for not driving straight if it had no impact on his prop or the scrum?

Separately, going to the mechanics of the scrum if the prop does not angle in, I don't see how the flanker could end up on the opposition prop unless he slips his bind off his own prop, and I did not see this happen either. The only time I saw the flanker on the opposition prop was after both props had angled in, in my judgement the less dominant team prop angling in first in most cases.

Ultimately, would you penalise a flanker for not pushing straight in a scrum if it had not impact on the front rows?

 

[Blackberry]

I played LH. The flanker is not bound onto me, but onto my second row. His shoulder is pushing on me. If he angled in (in my case from the right) that would very likely push my backside inwards causing my front to pivot out to the left. This is not automatically true, but the prop would need to be colluding with and have practised the caper with the flanker. If they did this, then you ask, what benefit would it have? The flanker boring in on the prop could (with joint practice) cause an inward movement, but then the flanker's direction of drive would then largely negate the normal drive of the second row...and hurt him too.
Its been a while, but I can't see the idea being a runner, it would be hard to do and have little net effect.

You also mention the coach then saying the flanker was driving on the opposition prop, this would be illegal but its unlikely they could do that without you seeing.

 

[SimonSmith]

Agree with BB.

The flanker is likely pushing hips in. As a referee, I worry about hips coming out more than going in.

 

[chbg]

Agree with BB.

The flanker is likely pushing hips in. As a referee, I worry about hips coming out more than going in.

If the prop is weak, allowing his hips to swing out, the flanker pushing in at an angle can assist the FR stability.

 

[didds]

Could I penalise the flanker for not driving straight if it had no impact on his prop or the scrum?

Flankers DRIVE ie PUSH at scrums?

My how the game has changed...


didds

 

[frenchie851]

If the flankers actions are causing the Prop to not drive straight and in at an angle just penalise the Prop. It is up to the prop to tell the flanker to stop what he is doing so that the prop doesn't infringe.

How ever I highly doubt that the flankers actions were affecting the scrum?

If I were the coach I would look at myself and the props shortcomings if the action of an oppo flanker was causing the scrum that much hassel.