[Law] Ball in or out ruck ( england v tonga )

[Christy]

1st half , about 20 something mins into game ( i didn't note time )

England have ball in ruck .
Ref tells red to stay on side ( which they do ) .
But england hind foot got legally exaggerated , by ref ???

England had 2 or 3 men forming their ruck & all on their feet .
But they also had a player lying on floor ( superman position )
His head was by his team mates feet ,
And the ball was at his feet , a good 1.5 meters out of ruck .

The ref allowed this ,
Again he told red to stay on side , which they did .

Any thoughts .
For me the ball was out & red should of been allowed to come around & pick up ball .

 

[Decorily]

1st half , about 20 something mins into game ( i didn't note time )

England have ball in ruck .
Ref tells red to stay on side ( which they do ) .
But england hind foot got legally exaggerated , by ref ???

England had 2 or 3 men forming their ruck & all on their feet .
But they also had a player lying on floor ( superman position )
His head was by his team mates feet ,
And the ball was at his feet , a good 1.5 meters out of ruck .

The ref allowed this ,
Again he told red to stay on side , which they did .

Any thoughts .
For me the ball was out & red should of been allowed to come around & pick up ball .

Seems the Ref was correct based on your description.

 

[Christy]

Maybe im not describing properly .
The ball was a good 1.5 meters away from the 3 england players feet , who were part of the ruck legally .
But the ball was at the feet of the england player , who was lying on the floor , ( his body running paralell with side lines )


I have to be honest , i have never seen it before .
But as the england player was lying completely flat on the floor .
I cant see how he can be part of ruck .
He was not bound & tremendously clear off his feet .

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe im not describing properly .
The ball was a good 1.5 meters away from the 3 england players feet , who were part of the ruck legally .
But the ball was at the feet of the england player , who was lying on the floor , ( his body running paralell with side lines )


I have to be honest , i have never seen it before .
But as the england player was lying completely flat on the floor .
I cant see how he can be part of ruck .
He was not bound & tremendously clear off his feet .

 

[Decorily]

I think you are describing it adequately...
I also still think the ref got it right!

 

[Zebra1922]

I didn’t see this incidents but I’ve seen plenty where the ball in just beyond the hindmost part and called still in the ruck, or something that really gets my goat, the caterpillar but with players only ‘bound’ by placing a hand on the player ahead of them ( oh, and the ones who stand offside to the side of a ruck to obstruct). Something I wish WR would be stronger on as this is really slowing the game down as SHs spend 10 seconds clearing from a ruck.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

There was a law clarification on this after the England New Zealand incident where Courteney Lawes was adjudged offisde which disallowed an England try. I took from that that the "hindmost" line now includes any player on their feet PLUS any part of the body of any player on the ground who was a part of the ruck at one time. So , how you describe it, the ref was correct.

 

[crossref]

There was a law clarification on this after the England New Zealand incident where Courteney Lawes was adjudged offisde which disallowed an England try. I took from that that the "hindmost" line now includes any player on their feet PLUS any part of the body of any player on the ground who was a part of the ruck at one time. So , how you describe it, the ref was correct.

Not quite.

A person on the ground in the tackle , is part of the tackle (see diagram in Law 14)

It's not clear whether a player on the ground is part of a ruck or not .

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Not quite.

A person on the ground in the tackle , is part of the tackle (see diagram in Law 14)

It's not clear whether a player on the ground is part of a ruck or not .

Cheers crossref ! I know what you mean.
I think the key point , to the original OP, is that Yes, we must also now consider more than just the players who are on their feet. Moreover, because Christy says he would have called that out, I wanted to agree with other posters that it sounded like the ref was correct.
By the way, I was wrong about it being a Law clarification. It was a 2019 amendment to the law book. (Now I just had a minute to go look it up )
Hope this helps , anyway,.
[LAWS]2019 law amend
Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any ruck participant. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line. [/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

It kind of implies that a person on the ground is still a ruck participatant

 

[The Fat]

If, whilst in the action of clearing out, players from the team in possession who are on their feet are “ahead” of some bodies on the ground as the #9 is digging the ball out, would you allow an opposition player to run around and contest digging the ball out claiming the players on the ground are not part of the ruck (i.e. ball is out)?
I would say not and therein lies your answer.

What was annoying to me was how Tongan players would form a chain to extend the ruck behind say the right hand side of the ruck, whilst the ball was clearly out behind the left side of the ruck and the #9 was mucking around preparing to pick it up for the box kick. The referee allowed this on every occasion. At least when England did it the hind most player was actually over the ball.

 

[BikingBud]

Deja Vu all over again:
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...e-Focus-Points&p=341300&viewfull=1#post341300
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20376-Rhys-Webb-ball-positioning