"ball out"

[Colt]

this must have been discussed at length before, but;
part of my pre brief is to tell 9 what I am looking for, in control of the ball, so both hands solidly on, then move ever so quickly. at ruck if you are obviously "digging" for ball I will tell oppo to hold the back foot, so make you decision coming up to the breakdown and act quickly when you have the ball, unlike Joe Simpson at a wasps game recently, taken out 3 times at least.

So I think my guidance is clear and un ambigious [!] you then get the 9 arriving, bobbing up and down like some nodding dog, pointing to the oppo, whilst looking at me, who he thinks aare now so offside they are over his dead ball line, all the time people are getting confused/ frustrated, ball eventually gets picked up 9 quite often gets taken out by marginal offside/ confused/ frustrated players, 9 has a word to know one in particular, but I know it is me, clever people play 9, usually with much arm waving and shouting at whatever audience he can muster support from, re-set for a knock on.

Now this is not every game but do you good people think I say too much to the 9, not enough, should I say nothing at all and "manage" situation on the pitch, "stay back"; 9 lets go please; etc

this is one bit of my game I need to get better at, as it does cause some friction and I just feel I am contributing to the problem!

 

[Adam]

Tell him to stop mucking about and get on with it.

 

[Davet]

There is a temptation to brief pre-game on lots and lots of stuff. Doing so generally reveals you to be fairly inexperienced, and players willoften twig that, and try to work you.

Less is more.

keep pre game brief - brief.

Safety issues, FR experience, engage procedures and not a lot else.

Any questions?

"when is ball out, sir"

"When its free and clear, or both hands on under control"

No more explanation - end of.

 

[Jacko]

I've found that a good answer to "when is it out?" is "if it's not obvious, ask."

 

[SimonSmith]

"If you have to ask, you're not sure. It's probably still in"

A mix of Jacko and DaveT. although here in the USA we have very clearly specified guidelines. I have yet to muster the pre match cojones to say "when it meets the parameters of 'out' as defined in the Gamen Management guidelines"

 

[Dixie]

part of my pre brief is to tell 9 what I am looking for, in control of the ball, so both hands solidly on, then move ever so quickly.

I suspect this is the root of your problem. You have given him express permission to stand with one hand on the ball WHILE IT IS IN TH RUCK/SCRUM assessing his optionss, and inviting the oppo to cream him. This causes the opposition to review their knowledge of Laws 16.4(b) [players must not handle the ball in a ruck] and 20.9(b) [players must not handle the ball in a scrum]. When they see the ball being handled by the SH, they assume that it must either a) be out; or b) be their penalty for handling, subject to advantage, so they naturally encroach on the SH to try to win that advantage. Imagine their surprise when you either PK them for offside, or reset the scrum! "What's occurring here?" they ask. We've got a right Charlie this week!

Avoid the confusion. Quick distribution is an essential part of SH skills; it's not your job to ignore the LoTG to help him to get the ball away*. I tell the SH: If you need to dig the ball out, I'll protect you, but as soon as it's clear of obstructions, you'r fair game. Apart from that, don't handle it until you're ready to distribute. Ball's out when your hand touches it, if not before.

 

[Dixie]

* the exception, by convention and almost universal practice, is the permission to dig a ball out of a ruck so we can soemtimes get the other 14 players into the game. ONLY at a ruck - it never applies at a scrum.

 

[Deeps]

If asked for today's clarification, because of the fuzziness in the law on this one and the imagined inconsistency of referees week to week, my response is that 'The ball is not out until the (acting) scrum half has it in both hands clear of the back foot.' This of course applies equally to a ruck or a scrum.

If players need further amplification than that then they can find out the hard way.

 

[Drift]

The way I explain it to both the number 9 and the forward pack is that if the halfback is digging for the ball then it isnt out until either I call it or the ball is clearly lifted away from the ruck. If the ball is quick and clean then it is when the 9 touches the ball.
I also get asked a lot about if the halfback isnt there and a ruck is formed when is the ball out and my clearest definition if you were to look at the ruck from a birds eye view and you can see the entire ball then it is most probably out but if you are unsure ask and I will advise

 

[Davet]

The bird's eye view is well known, but doesn't really work. You may be better seeing it as within the arc of the back feet.

Inside the arc is in, out is out.

 

[TheBFG]

something else to take into account is the level you are reffin at.

if we're in weeds L11 and below i think you should give a little more time to get the ball away, if you don't everytime someone bends to get the ball he gets jumped on and there's no game at all.

once you're into the dizzy heights of 9/8/7, skills are better and therefore the SH/person getting the ball away from breakdown should be slicker and things can get a move on.

My advice to SH (if they ask at the breif, and they usually do) once the ball is in your hands and under control, you're fair game, providing they've come from an on side position:wink:

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

providing they've come from an on side position:wink:

That's the crux of managing it I find. It's a pretty shit SH that has hands on and control and still gets caught by someone onside/bound. Like you say probably more common in "weedy" rugby

You occasionally get some collapsed ruck type thing that needs "managing".

 

[andyscott]

Bloody scrum halves, why dont we bend down and get the ball for them. They get far to much protection.

Simples, hands on, out! Unless i tell them to help it back.
If the SH is bobbing around FK him for dummying at the base.

But yes generally the people thinking it is out are not on the back foot

 

[Phil E]

Funny you should post this thread as I was only thinking of this the other day.

If asked I have always tended to say what my peers say. "Two hands on, under control, is out". One hand easing it back is allowed and not classed as out.

But I have a hard time equating this to the LOTG.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the ball is out when it is beyond the back foot (obviously) or when it is lifted off the ground. Which in itself is a much easier definition than "under control".

The LOTG give no guidance on this, has there ever been a ruling on it?

 

[Davet]

I think a lot of this stems from Jim Morrison, he wrote a book some years ago now, which advocated letting the 9 dig for it, even though the laws would class that as hands in, and to protect him while he does.

Given Jim's current elevated position in the RFU...

 

[SimonSmith]

Jim's dead.

Ed's alive...

 

[Davet]

Mr Ed?

Oops.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I think a lot of this stems from Jim Morrison, he wrote a book some years ago now, which advocated letting the 9 dig for it, even though the laws would class that as hands in, and to protect him while he does.

Given Jim's current elevated position in the RFU...

Nice one.......

Why not???????????

Head of Elite Refereeing = Jim Morrison
Director of Elite Rugby = Jimi Hendrix
England Team Manager = Sid Vicious
Chief Executive = Elvis Presley
President = Marc Bolan
Management Board Chairman = John Lennon

other roles to be distributed to Jaco Pastorius, Bon Scott, Kurt Cobain, Janis Joplin, Ian Curtis etc etc etc

It's a winner and it won't cost much

 

[Deeps]

...once the ball is in your hands and under control, you're fair game, providing they've come from an on side position:wink:

The danger with briefing this advice is that you will then get 'Hands on ref!' called ad nauseam and all will assume 'Hands on' is out or else you will get asked 'When does the scrum half have 'control' of the ball and how will I know that'.

 

[Davet]

you will then get 'Hands on ref!' called ad nauseam

Oh yes, been there, got the T-shirt, and (as they say regarding Watership Down) eaten the pie.