Can a maul become a ruck?

Pegleg

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Indeed so he can handle the ball in a ruck where as that is expressly forbidden in law. How do legal ruckers use their feet to win the ball without running the risk of penalty?

Let's go back to call ruck and hands off.

I'm not disagreeing with you on what the law is. I just feel the law is an ass in this situation.
 

Browner

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Indeed so he can handle the ball in a ruck where as that is expressly forbidden in law. How do legal ruckers use their feet to win the ball without running the risk of penalty?

.
They cant' ...without that risk existing. They're simply "Beaten by the tack/jack's" speed/skill...... Live with it.

Its tough enough to win a possession turnover these days, any move to further removing this skill sends us toward 'Rugby(uncontested possessions) League' ..... Crucifix box unloosened :nono: no no no !!!!
 

Pegleg

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So it is not a true ruck as there is no competition for the ball. The Ruckers form a ruck knowing they will not be able to ruck.


"Here you are guys this guy has the ball in his hand form a ruck but you can't actually ruck."


If that's what is wanted fair enough.
 

Browner

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So it is not a true ruck as there is no competition for the ball. The Ruckers form a ruck knowing they will not be able to ruck.


"Here you are guys this guy has the ball in his hand form a ruck but you can't actually ruck."


If that's what is wanted fair enough.

"rucking" has a proviso in Law, "without being guilty of foul play"

[LAWS]Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.[/LAWS]

IF you can achieve that condition, then ruck away til your heart's content, if you can't remain lawful then tough, live with it.

Remember HE GAINED HIS RIGHT 1ST.
The days of not being responsible for your boots have long gone , much to the sadness of many welsh forwards from yesteryear !


I get your point though...... Why bother forming the ruck ........ we often see teams deciding they cant win possession, so they refrain, & regroup to defend the next phase. Another alternative is let him pick it up, then tackle him and then he has to release the ball .
 
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OB..


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Has anybody else spotted the need for a matrix showing the transitions between phases?

For my money the jackler who lifts the ball after a ruck has formed has turned it into a maul (usually - if there are no team mates bound on, then he can be tackled).
 

Pegleg

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Indeed OB. let's get it clear. But please let's not pretend you can have a ruck when the ball is in the hands. It is just silly.
 

Pinky


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Indeed OB. let's get it clear. But please let's not pretend you can have a ruck when the ball is in the hands. It is just silly.

Peg leg, if Jackler gets hands on, a ruck can still form while ball is on ground. In theory he.could then lift it. This does not make it a maul, still a ruck until it ends, eg successfully by ball leaving or unsuccessfully, then scrum. Not a t/o scrum as never a maul.
 

Browner

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For my money the jackler who lifts the ball after a ruck has formed has turned it into a maul (usually - if there are no team mates bound on, then he can be tackled).

Alternatively , he is exercising his ' unique' status to have won possession for his team, unprevented by rucking opposition who do not have the same exception.

Jackler successes are difficult enough , if he lifts the ball (post ruck formation) and his opposition can then immediately switch from rucking to wrapping him up in a ruck-2-maul conversion, then
a) its a jumbled mess &
b) the resultant scrum put in to his opposition immediately undoes all his possession turnover jackalling.

IMO, this isn't sufficient reward for how difficult this jackalling skill is nowadays.

My 2p.
 
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OB..


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Alternatively , he is exercising his ' unique' status to have won possession for his team, unprevented by rucking opposition who do not have the same exception.
So you argue that once he has lifted the ball, nobody else can compete for it? If it is still a ruck, that mean no team-mates can handle it either.
 

Browner

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So you argue that once he has lifted the ball, nobody else can compete for it? If it is still a ruck, that mean no team-mates can handle it either.

Yep, until the ruck ends ( and lifting ball off the floor isn't currently one of those endings) , so 'everyone else' does not have law permission to handle the ball.

(Nb...notwithstanding this ......... its The same as in all rucks , which currently mean the ball winning team sometimes help the ball get to the scrum half quicker/tidier and the scrum half can do his little bit of digging/excavation/preparation merely to aid game flow, same as currently happens)

Currently Mr jackTackler has a unique ruck-handling rights , Law either recognises this OR it changes to remove them, but currently we shouldn't surpress these by a ruck metamorphing into a maul merely through this Single players skill actioning his "rights"
 

ChrisR

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Browner, you are a master of obfuscation by convolution.

1. Jackler gets hands on ball on ground.
2. Opponent engages him.
3. Jackler lifts ball off ground.

From your post above you consider ruck law still applies.

And if the jackler is driven away from the tackle area and brought to ground you would PK for 'collapsing the ruck'?

And if a teammate of the jackler joins and strips the ball, or the opponent strips the ball, then this would be 'handling in the ruck'?

Why? Why invent a new category of play and anoint the jackler with special powers?
 

Browner

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. Browner, you are a master of obfuscation by convolution. Sorry, too complicated for me to understand! I presume its praising, so thanks :sarc:

1. Jackler gets hands on ball on ground . IF this is after a Tackle(*) then 16.4(b) has now commenced
2. Opponent engages him. Or Ruck forms around him = Ruck now formed as per16.1(b)
3. Jackler lifts ball off ground. As permitted in 16.4(b)
From your post above you consider ruck law still applies. Seems to be so in Law ?

And if the jackler is driven away from the tackle area and brought to ground you would PK for 'collapsing the ruck'd? Ah ha, the old debate over collapsing the ruck eh....??? Can you collapse?- law says no!, is saddle rolling/collapsing rife and ignored?-yes!. Do players routinely go off their feet deliberately at the Ruck and remain unpunished?-yes they do!.

However I will try to answer the difficult question as best I can ........
IF its 1v1 then I'd re-consider this drive and collapse as a new tackle situation, because both players are now on the ground and Ruck condition is "on feet".
IF its 1 v 2\3\4 then collapsing the JackTacklerRuckee ( as defined above (*) ) is much more likely ( if C&O'ly deliberate) but ignored IF the JackTackler retains possession for his team ( under materiality)



And if a teammate of the jackler joins and strips the ball, or the opponent strips the ball, then this would be 'handling in the ruck'?
Opponents? Yes, because their "handling" is material to the outcome of having won possession Lawfully.
Own team ? No, for all the same reasons we allow 'own team players' to assist the ball getting recycled within existing rucks via assisting the delivery.

Why? Why invent a new category of play and anoint the jackler with special powers? I haven't, and the JackTackler already has these unique "rights"
I

In essense, I'm always looking to reward the 'contest for the ball winner' , as without such reward our USP of our 'code' goes stale IMHO.


 
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RobLev

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Browner, you are a master of obfuscation by convolution.

1. Jackler gets hands on ball on ground.
2. Opponent engages him.
3. Jackler lifts ball off ground.

From your post above you consider ruck law still applies.

And if the jackler is driven away from the tackle area and brought to ground you would PK for 'collapsing the ruck'?

And if a teammate of the jackler joins and strips the ball, or the opponent strips the ball, then this would be 'handling in the ruck'?

Why? Why invent a new category of play and anoint the jackler with special powers?

I can't speak for Browner, but for me:

Law 16.4(b) allows a jackler to keep his hands on the ball during a ruck provided he had his hands on before the ruck forms. There is nothing in the Law to suggest that by exercising his rights under 16.4(b) the jackler is converting the ruck into a maul. So the Law says that ruck law still applies (I know OB disagrees, but know whence our disagreement comes - he says (I believe) that a ruck can end by conversion into a maul).

No-one else is allowed to handle the ball in the ruck - so neither team-mate nor opponent are allowed to strip the ball.

The other side of the coin is that because we do not have a maul, the jackler's side can't trundle it off upfield; they have clearly obtained possession, so they have to get the ball out and back into play - encouraged by a shout of "Use it" if necessary.
 
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ChrisR

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RobLev, you have conveniently skipped step 3, "Jackler lifts ball off ground". Until the 'lift' no=one is doubting that ruck law is still in force.

The question is: "Does lifting the ball end the ruck?"

If the jackler gets the ball off the deck before he is engaged then he is liable to be tackled as a BC.

If he is bound onto a teammate and an opponent with the ball in his hands then we now have a maul.

You are hanging your analysis on the absence of the scenario being covered in 'end of ruck law'.
 

RobLev

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RobLev, you have conveniently skipped step 3, "Jackler lifts ball off ground". Until the 'lift' no=one is doubting that ruck law is still in force.

The question is: "Does lifting the ball end the ruck?"

If the jackler gets the ball off the deck before he is engaged then he is liable to be tackled as a BC.

If he is bound onto a teammate and an opponent with the ball in his hands then we now have a maul.

You are hanging your analysis on the absence of the scenario being covered in 'end of ruck law'.

I have already said that if he gets it off the ground before he's engaged it's (at that moment) open play; how could it be anything else? He can be tackled (and rinse and repeat...) - or if players from either side bind on it becomes a maul.

If he doesn't get it off the ground before engagement, then there's a ruck.

I am indeed saying that the law sets out the circumstances in which a ruck ends; and that simply lifting the ball in the ruck is not one of those prescribed circumstances. As there is a comprehensive code, I can't see the justification for adding to it; particularly where there is a Law specifically entitling a player to handle the ball in the ruck, and that Law does not restrict the way in which he handles it, or say that his handling it in a specific way has the consequence of changing the phase of play.

The effect of refereeing it this way is simply that the ruck is over quicker; either because, since the jackler is allowed to handle the ball, he can get it to his SH quicker or, because the ball has clearly been won, the clock for blowing it unplayable starts quicker. He gets the turnover, but in place.

Allowing the jackler to create a maul simply by picking the ball up gives his side the advantage not of a turnover in place, but the opportunity to pass the ball to the back of the maul and trundle off upfield with the ball uncontestable. That, it seems to me, gives the jackler far too much advantage.
 
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Browner

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RobLev, you have conveniently skipped step 3, "Jackler lifts ball off ground". Until the 'lift' no=one is doubting that ruck law is still in force.

The question is: "Does lifting the ball end the ruck?" Yep, that is OBs thrust, he thinks it should - Law doesn't list that as an ending event ( it lists the others) so currently the answer is no, it doesn't.
If the jackler gets the ball off the deck before he is engaged then he is liable to be tackled as a BC. Agree

If he is bound onto a teammate and an opponent with the ball in his hands then we now have a maul. but you're forgetting the key consideration .. only if he got it off the floor BEFORE the Ruck forms

You are hanging your analysis on the absence of the scenario being covered in 'end of ruck law'.

If you and OBs view is to be considered in a Law change, then the Law writers need to consider the effect that it will have on the Ruck. .

...ie

Jack/Tackler has hands on ball.
Ruck forms around him.
JT starts lifting the ball.
At merely 1cm of the ground (the Ruck has now ended as per your wish for it now to be metamorphing into a Ruul (RuckMaul)) .... Opposition players are all now permitted to stick their hands on the ball, so they all do 'proclaiming "1cm off the floor, Ruul, sir "

Instead of helping the game, you'd have a jumbled mess of competing hands on a ball , compounded by claim and counter claim over legality, which is known to be undesirable.

Whilst I understand why Ruck2maul might seem a good idea, in practice it might not be.

My interpretation is a much better 'clarity' on this subject IMHO.







 

rdenk


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Gents,

A maul can become a ruck, but:

Law 17.2: d) Keeping players on their feet. Players in a maul must endeavour to stay on their feet. The ball carrier in a maul may go to ground providing the ball is available immediately and play continues.

and Law 17.2(e):
A player must not intentionally collapse a maul. This is dangerous play.

So it is possible, but there is a grey area. I've seen refs giving the penalty kick for 17.2 e. Sometimes in my honest opinion quite too easy. It all comes down to what the refs interpretation is.
 

JJ10


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Classic example of this conundrum yesterday....assessor watching and was discussed at the end of the game.

I've had a read of various threads and I'm still not sure. Guess it can all come down to interpretation, but this is how it went.

- Black attacking maul moving forward, ball carrier gets to ground and ball “available".
- Ball not immediately played by black, mainly due to lack of scrum half and direction/ideas from black.
- Ruck formed as players bind over the ball - attacking side to protect it and defending side to try and get hold of it
- “Messy” ruck…. leads to ball becoming unplayable….

I gave a Black scrum as they were in possession moving forward, ball became unplayable after a ruck.

Now obviously, a couple of other mauls in the game never made it to ground and the ball was never available - so the resulting restart was scrum, defending put in.

Cue discussion at end of game with assessor....

Thoughts?
 

Browner

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Classic example of this conundrum yesterday....assessor watching and was discussed at the end of the game.

I've had a read of various threads and I'm still not sure. Guess it can all come down to interpretation, but this is how it went.

- Black attacking maul moving forward, ball carrier gets to ground and ball “available".
- Ball not immediately played by black, mainly due to lack of scrum half and direction/ideas from black.
- Ruck formed as players bind over the ball - attacking side to protect it and defending side to try and get hold of it
- “Messy” ruck…. leads to ball becoming unplayable….

I gave a Black scrum as they were in possession moving forward, ball became unplayable after a ruck.

Now obviously, a couple of other mauls in the game never made it to ground and the ball was never available - so the resulting restart was scrum, defending put in.

Cue discussion at end of game with assessor....

Thoughts?

See Law 17.6 (g) which deals with your specific scenario
[FONT=fs_blakeregular](g)[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.


[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]When the ball is available to be played the referee will call "Use it!" after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball is awarded the throw-in.[/FONT]

Or, in other words .... a collapsed maul that becomes unplayable = turnover.
 

OB..


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We have had the argument from time to time that being available is not the same as being played, as in this example. Some argue that being available means the maul has ended successfully and what remains must be a ruck.

Frankly I think the situation is as clear as mud. However I do insist that the ball carrier going to ground does not create a ruck. That attempt to avoid a turnover was ruled invalid 20 years ago, and I have seen nothing since that clearly changes that.
 
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