Can we get off this slippery slope ?

[Browner]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30893127

Study these photos, in one you have highly paid players crowding the referee, in the other ....!

is there a correlation between wage rates and challenge ?

Slide , Reversable or inevitable?

"It was always seen in the past that players have very good relationships with referees, and it was the real differing factor between football and rugby," said Day. "It would be a real shame for rugby if that was lost so that's something that we're looking to be proactive on - bring the referees in, and hopefully forge relationships with them and ask them 'what are they looking for?'

& the Answer is ????????????????

 

[Daftmedic]

No Idea what the comment, "What are they looking for" is about? To me it's simple. Play the game within the spirit of the law and you won't hear my whistle. I'm there to keep you safe and honest.

 

[Pegleg]

I doubt we can. The fault lies on all sides of the divide.

Players: Cheat and, increasingly, money not the game is the motivation.

Refs: Fail to implement "directives" Tip tackle card anyone? Of course that directive has dissapeared off the face of the earth. The clampdown on the scrum engagement. Anyone remember requiring the SH to throw the ball the massive distance of just over a metre accurately. It is increacing ly being ignored. Props should bind on the body not the arm. A recent game I saw on TV had both TH props binding on the arm at every scrum that they were visible in (prsumably they were doing the same on the far side too) yet not one PK was giving. Sorry that is a lot of ASK and TELL and not enough PENALTY!

WR: It's easy to give out directives and create sanctions for offences / foul play. How about they actually come down on the refs shown to be ignoring the instructions. How about they make the punishment fit the crime? NO ban should be lower than the "minimum" for the offence. Don't take time off for previous good behaviour. NO add time on for previous bad behaviour.

Of course none of this will happen.

 

[crossref]

it's a constant refrain on this site that a referee should not set out with an objective of being the players' friend. That approach doesn't work.

but I do sometimes get the impression that the people who organise the elite refs DO set out to be the friend of the coaches and tournament organisers. Their language can be too accomodating. Anyone else think this?

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Study these photos, in one you have highly paid players crowding the referee, in the other ....!

I think the photos are very dissimilar. One is DC saying something to RP with the Quins scrum assembling in their regular pre bind formation. RP looks fairly at ease.

The other is a baying mob of MUFC players led by serial pychopathic, headcase Roy Keane backed up by Japp Stam, Nicky Butt, Ryan Giggs and David Beckham forcing Andy D'Urso backwards at a rate of knots (although perhaps not apparent from the photo). The only surprise for me in photo #2 is that Gary Neville is not in there too. Another w@nker! From what I recall of this ADU would have:-

1) Been quite justified in RCing - Keane, Stam, Butt
2) Never refereed in the EPL again if he'd gone through with 1)

That's not to say the point made in the OP is not a valid one I am just cautious that the inference can be drawn that player/referee relationships are merging in the two sports based on these photos.

What would satisfy me more would be clubs/DoRs having no hesitation in dealing with David Paice and Dylan Hartley type instances of referee abuse instead of turning up at Disciplinary Hearings and taking their hand slap.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I think the photos are very dissimilar. One is DC saying something to RP with the Quins scrum assembling in their regular pre bind formation. RP looks fairly at ease.

The other is a baying mob of MUFC players led by serial pychopathic, headcase Roy Keane backed up by Japp Stam, Nicky Butt, Ryan Giggs and David Beckham forcing Andy D'Urso backwards at a rate of knots (although perhaps not apparent from the photo). The only surprise for me in photo #2 is that Gary Neville is not in there too. Another w@nker! From what I recall of this ADU would have:-

1) Been quite justified in RCing - Keane, Stam, Butt
2) Never refereed in the EPL again if he'd gone through with 1)

That's not to say the point made in the OP is not a valid one I am just cautious that the inference can be drawn that player/referee relationships are merging in the two sports based on these photos.

What would satisfy me more would be clubs/DoRs having no hesitation in dealing with David Paice and Dylan Hartley type instances of referee abuse instead of turning up at Disciplinary Hearings and taking their hand slap.

 

[didds]

is that top photograph taken out of context? It looks like the immediate aftermath, or leading up to, a scrummage, where there will always be 9 players of one team at least near the ref?

didds

 

[OB..]

is that top photograph taken out of context?

Trolling?

 

[Pegleg]

Indeed the photographs are, dare I say it, deliberately selected to mislead.

That said, there is a growing problem that we would do well not to ignore. Sadly this type of "tabloid" posting of pictures out of context does not help in the slightest.

 

[Browner]

OK I admit the photos arent the best choice, but I'm trying to highlight the growth/trend at the top end of the game that is leading to the need for meetings such as this ........whilst accepting that the game is no where near the levels of soccer 'yet' !!

Adam ( puppy dog eyes) head grabbing PK denial was reminiscent of Paulo Di canio free kick appealing, and you don't need to be a spot the difference officionado to recognise similarities in these pictures....

This is a gradual trend curve , even the great has shown glipses of referee challenge,

I contend that the game is on a slippery slope, can we get off it ?

 

[ChrisR]

Until technology advances to the point that the game is played entirely by robots there will be instantaneous reactions from players when:

1. They see blatant foul play not called.

2. They (or a teammate) get called for foul play but believe they're innocent.

It's a different reaction when they skulk away knowing they're guilty.

It is the secondary reaction that is more important. Dissenting, arguing, crowding, sarcastic comments. To a lesser extent muttering, eye-rolling and head-shaking.

 

[Pegleg]

OK I admit the photos arent the best choice, but I'm trying to highlight the growth/trend at the top end of the game that is leading to the need for meetings such as this ....

I contend that the game is on a slippery slope, can we get off it ?

So you chose a photo that was in no way related to your comments to "prove a point". I agree with your basic point but feel your methods are counter productive.

 

[Pegleg]

Until technology advances to the point that the game is played entirely by robots there will be instantaneous reactions from players when:

1. They see blatant foul play not called.

2. They (or a teammate) get called for foul play but believe they're innocent.

It's a different reaction when they skulk away knowing they're guilty.

It is the secondary reaction that is more important. Dissenting, arguing, crowding, sarcastic comments. To a lesser extent muttering, eye-rolling and head-shaking.

I don't think anybody is suggesting robots. But the trend. Which is clearly towards more dissent and challenging of the referee's authority.

 

[OB..]

In 1871 the very first international was held up for 10 minutes while a decision was being disputed. In fact the "right" to dispute was built into the arrangement that players had to appeal to an umpire for an infringement, and each side had its own umpire who could not act other than on an appeal. Referees were eventually introduced to provide a casting vote if needed. In the nineteenth century there were several disputes between countries that led to cancelling fixtures. It was not until 1969 that the right to appeal to your Union on a point of law was finally removed.

In that sense we are trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube, but these days I certainly expect a referee to give information about a decision if properly requested, but not to enter into a discussion during the game. Constant challenges should be managed by escalation.

 

[Taff]

I think the photos are very dissimilar. One is DC saying something to RP with the Quins scrum assembling in their regular pre bind formation. RP looks fairly at ease.

Just what I was thinking. In fact, the rugby Ref doesn't look intimidated to me.

 

[Na Madrai]

Until technology advances to the point that the game is played entirely by robots there will be instantaneous reactions from players when:

1. They see blatant foul play not called.

2. They (or a teammate) get called for foul play but believe they're innocent.

It's a different reaction when they skulk away knowing they're guilty.

It is the secondary reaction that is more important. Dissenting, arguing, crowding, sarcastic comments. To a lesser extent muttering, eye-rolling and head-shaking.

No matter what level I referee, any of the above get an immediate quiet individual warning and a PK, then the skipper is warned and a PK and the third offence is a card. As I stated fairly recently, a player received his second YC for appealing in less than twenty minutes of playing time not too long ago.

I will not allow rugby to degenerate to the level of soccer.



NM