[Law] Changes to Uncontested Scrum Law

TheBFG


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I hear a rumble that there's going to be a change to the laws regarding uncontested scrums at international level ONLY

Potentially bringing back the old "man off ruling" after the Welsh debacle v Georgia :chin:

Anyone else heard anything about this???
 

crossref


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I don't think man off makes any difference in that particular scenario. If there is no player available to come on, then that's it either way. (ie you are not forced to take off a second player )
 

TheBFG


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But that could be the change, back to the "man off ruling" i.e. if you cause uncontested scrums (injured YC etc.) you take another player with you, so you're playing with 13, BUT you still have to have 8 in the scrum.
 

crossref


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But that could be the change, back to the "man off ruling" i.e. if you cause uncontested scrums (injured YC etc.) you take another player with you, so you're playing with 13, BUT you still have to have 8 in the scrum.

But that is not what happens with man off.
 

SimonSmith


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This? A flow chart will be forthcoming.


UNCONTESTED SCRUMS23 PLAYERS
Law 3.6 UNCONTESTED SCRUMS
(a) Scrums will become uncontested if either team cannot field a suitable trained front row
or if the referee orders so.
(d) In a squad of 23 players a player whose departure has caused the referee to order
uncontested scrums cannot be replaced.
LAW AMENDMENT TRIAL:
(h) Uncontested scrums because of a sending off, temporary suspension or injury must be
played with eight players.
Exceptions:
Temporary replacement - blood injury:
1. When the referee orders uncontested scrums after a front row player is
temporary replaced for a blood injury, the team responsible for the uncontested
scrums does not lose a player.
2. If the temporary replacement becomes permanent after 15 minutes the team
lose a player – the temporary replacement must leave the field.
3. The team must form a scrum with eight players.
Temporary replacement – HIA (head injury assessment):
1. When the referee orders uncontested scrums after a front row player is
temporary replaced for a HIA, the team responsible for the uncontested scrums
does not lose a player.
2. If the temporary replacement becomes permanent after 10 minutes the team
lose a player – the temporary replacement must leave the field.
3. The team must form a scrum with eight players.
Player injured because of foul play:
1. When the referee orders uncontested scrums after a front row player is injured
following foul play, the team responsible for the uncontested scrums does not
lose a player.
2. The team must form a scrum with eight players.
Scenario 1.
During the match a team replaced both their props through injury. The replacement TH gets
injured.
1. If the team cannot field a suitably trained front row uncontested scrums must be
ordered. The injured TH player cannot be replaced. The team lose a player.
2. The remaining front row substitutes (hooker/LH) must be used in the front row
of the uncontested scrums and another player must be nominated to leave the
field.
3. The team plays with 14 players until the end of the game.
4. Both teams must form with eight players in the scrum.
Scenario 2.
During the match a team replaced both their props through injury. The replacement TH is
temporary suspended (Y/C). At the next scrum awarded in the match the following applies:
1. If the team cannot field a suitably trained front row, uncontested scrums must
be ordered. The temporary suspended TH player cannot be replaced.
2. The temporary suspended TH caused uncontested scrums to be ordered
therefore the team lose a player. The team must nominate a player to leave the
field.
3. The remaining substitute (hooker) must be used in the front row of the
uncontested scrums and another player must be nominated to leave the field to
allow the hooker to come on to the field to play.
4. The team plays with 13 players for the remainder of the temporary suspension
time of the TH.
5. Both teams must form uncontested scrums with eight players in the scrum.
6. At the end of the TH temporary suspension time the replacement hooker must
leave the field.
7. The TH and the two nominated players must return to the field to play.
8. The game continues with contested scrums.
Scenario 3.
During the match a team replaced both their props through injury. The replacement TH is
permanently suspended (R/C). At the next scrum awarded in the match the following
applies:
1. If the team cannot field a suitable front row, uncontested scrums must be
ordered. The permanently suspended TH player cannot be replaced.
2. The permanent suspended TH caused uncontested scrums to be ordered
therefore the team lose a player. The team must nominate a player to leave the
field.
3. The remaining substitute (hooker) must be used in the front row of the
uncontested scrums. Another player must be nominated to leave the field to
allow the hooker to come on to the field to play.
4. The team plays with 13 players for the remainder of the match.
5. Both teams must form with eight players in the scrum.
Scenario 4.
During the match a team replaced a prop (LH) and the hooker through injury. The TH prop is
called from the field for a HIA. The TH prop is temporarily replaced by the remaining
substitution TH prop. The temporary replacement TH prop gets injured before the TH prop
(HIA) is cleared to play. The following applies:
1. The team cannot field a suitably trained front row and does not have any front
row players left that can play in the match. Uncontested scrums must be
ordered.
2. The injured TH prop can be temporary replaced by any available player - the
uncontested scrums is caused by the TH prop that was called for HIA. The team
does not lose a player.
3. The team continue to play with the number of forward players at the time when
uncontested scrums were ordered.
4. Both teams must form with eight players in the scrum.
5. If the TH prop is cleared to play within the allowed time the player must return
to the field of play immediately and replace the temporary replacement.
6. The game continues with contested scrums.
The above also applies in the case of a blood injury.
Comments:
1. The front row tactical substitutions during the match does not influence the
application of the uncontested scrum laws at the time uncontested scrums are
ordered.
2. Front row players who are temporarily substitutions in the match and whom are
temporarily suspended or permanently suspended does not change or influence
the application of the uncontested scrum laws at the time when uncontested
scrums are ordered.
3. When a player is tactically replaced, and subsequently develops an injury, that
change must be communicated to the 4/5 at that time, having been verified by
the independent match doctor, where one is appointed.
4. It is of high importance that the movement of players during the match are
meticulously monitored and the reasons for changes properly documented with
all relevant detail.
5. It is advised that a no 6 official should be considered to specifically fulfil the role
of notational analyst to document all information in this regard.
 

OB..


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My recollection is that "man off" simply meant that if a front row player was injured and no fit replacement was available, you went to uncontested scrums, but the injured player could not be replaced (14 man team). It did not mean you had to take an extra person off (13 man team).

IIRC it was intended to counter the practice that some teams were believed to indulge in, namely claiming uncontested scrums when it was deemed to be to their advantage.

"Man off" was one of those short-hand phrases that it was easy to misunderstand.
 

Christy


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Hi simon .
That certainly is a lot of words , to take in .
What year did same come from .
Its a bit of a tongue twister

My understanding i beleive is same / similar as OB
That if front row goes off . & there is no replacement = they play with 14.

If 15 players on field & a prop goes off yellow card & then we have a scrum . ( 14 lads on field )
If another prop isnt available through injury / suspension .
But a hooker is on bench .
The hooker has to come on , still uncontested & another player goes off because hooker came on .
So we still have 14 players on field .

Above reads to me ( from your long list )
That another guy also needs to leave = 13 players . ????.
Or am i reading it wrong .
 

SimonSmith


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That got issued to USA referees on Sunday. On behalf of WR.
 

crossref


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It reads like the 12 year old wrote it Sunday morning .
 

Pegleg

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Well lets start with:

Wales cheated. However, they are not the first and will not be the last.


The official must take the word of the team that the player is not fit to continue. Safety demands that. So what is in the interests of the game when it comes to a solution?

Does forcing a team to paly a man short help? Well lets be fair and forget the front row for a minute.

We have two scenarios possible

1 a tean has no sub options left but has previosly subbed FR players available to return if required.

2 a team has subs options avaiable but not STE for the FR.

Now if a non FR player went off in senario 1 the team goes down to 14 (etc). Where as if it is a FR player a STE replacement cmust take place.

Now if a non FR player went off in senario 2 the player is replaced. So why not the same for the FR? - Because they may be cheating comes athe reply. There is no reason to deny a replacement for injury otherwise.

Is that realy fair? I'm not sure it is.

So how do we "hit" the cheats without being unfair to the unlucky? Do we say any FR player wh is "injured" takea madatory 2 weeks off to allow the injury to "properly heal"? Would that deter teams?

Do we fine teams causing U/C scrums (particularly when due to cards)?

Is "man off" the only way?

Or do we just have to accept there is no solution?

As an aside:

A number of years ago a club coach in Wales sent a message down to pitchside just before a 5m scrum to get the LH off and go uncontested. His wish was carried out. The scrum took place and with a solid platform the opposition 8 picked up and walked over for the winning try. The same coach has been a vocal critic of the welsh camp since the Georgia game.

Now had that scrum been contested there were several possibilities:

1 Try try would still have come
2 With all the movement the 8 might not have picked up with control and a knock on may have occurred
3 The movement and instability inherent in a scrum may have made the scrum more defendable in general and the attack may have been defended.
4 The ball might have gone against the head.

Who Knows?

I think that in cases like the Wales V Georgia one, the referee should offer the penalty options again to the non offending side. After all Georgia opted of a scrum for obvious reasons. After the fact the dynanic changed. But I also think that by having to maintain a full scrum Wales has gamps and Georgia had a real advantage with the man over in the backs and with clear positive all from the scrum probably should have made more of the scrum anyway.
 

Ciaran Trainor


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The man off rule rarely causes issues where I operate at L7 and below. Amazing many times a team will say we'll have to go uncontested sir and when I remind them that it is a man off, the "injured" player suddenly recovers or somebody else steps up and reveals they are ST&E to play in the front row.
I know the dynamics are a little different at the top end but I'm sure man off would result in less "injured" front rows and less farces for us all to watch.
 

VM75

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The man off rule rarely causes issues where I operate at L7 and below. Amazing many times a team will say we'll have to go uncontested sir and when I remind them that it is a man off, the "injured" player suddenly recovers or somebody else steps up and reveals they are ST&E to play in the front row.
I know the dynamics are a little different at the top end but I'm sure man off would result in less "injured" front rows and less farces for us all to watch.

Then card them for unsportsmanlike or fakery or simulation behaviours ! :sarc:
 

Pegleg

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The man off rule rarely causes issues where I operate at L7 and below. Amazing many times a team will say we'll have to go uncontested sir and when I remind them that it is a man off, the "injured" player suddenly recovers or somebody else steps up and reveals they are ST&E to play in the front row.
I know the dynamics are a little different at the top end but I'm sure man off would result in less "injured" front rows and less farces for us all to watch.

If a team claims a FR player is injured only to change their mind when "man off" is confirmed. I am not allowing the change of mind. If that player is subsequently badly injured the ref would be in the mess.

STE players are established BEFORE the game not during. Once a player is "injured" they are injured. Any such change of diagnosis will be reported but not allowed.
 

crossref


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You are right in principle , but out in the weeds the distinction between injured and just knackered is bit blurry , and people do legitimately recover from injuries .. eg perhaps they went back to the changing room and fetched their puffer .. sometime some flexible common sense is called for
 

Pegleg

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I was called for it by an assessor. so Our instrutions are clear. Off for a puffer is very different and would / should be made clear. If a player is marked and replaced (injured) he is not coming back on simple as that. Your assessors / union may take a different line but they are not in charge of me.
 

L'irlandais

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Clarification 1 2018
We therefore ask that you clarify the following:

Is the Law Application Guideline supported by Law? Law 3.6(d) states that a player, whose departure results in a team being unable to contest the scrum, cannot be replaced. We can see no provision in Law for a further player to have to leave the field if the departure is due to a suspension.
Is the following correct? If a front row player is suspended and uncontested scrums are ordered the following must occur:
The suspended player leaves the field; and
A further player leaves the field; and
A third player might have to leave the field to allow an available front row player to come on.
Through one incident three players from the same team may have to leave the field.
 

crossref


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Gosh , that deserves a new thread on its own

Where can we find the Dec 2017 Law Application Guideline referred to ?
 
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