Charge-down offside?

[Chogan]

Open play.
Red player clears the ball from outside his 22 with a kick.
Blue player charges the ball down and the ball travels towards Red's try line.
2nd blue player who was ahead of the 1st, reaches the ball first and plays it.

I blow a penalty for the 2nd blue player being offside.

 

[Jacko]

Correct.

 

[Chogan]

My assessor stated otherwise as a charge down does not constitute having played the ball.

 

[Jacko]

He's wrong IMO.

 

[crossref]

IMO you are correct, a charge down is definitely playing the ball.

 

[Phil E]

Charge down put all the kicking teams players onside.
Any of the chargers team in front of him are offside.

Otherwise at a chargedown EVERYONE would be onside, and we know that isnt true.

 

[Browner]

Any of the chargers team in front of him are offside.

........ & this 'offside' is capable of remedy by 'retiring [11.2[a] says 'run'] behind the teammate who kicked it'

 

[leaguerefaus]

Bit concerning when your assessor gets a simple ruling wrong. Kudos for not just taking his word for it. I've had several disagreements with assessors before because I've known what they're trying to tell me is wrong.

 

[Browner]

..."disagreements with assessors".....

that's gotta be rare !

 

[Chogan]

Assessor's reasoning was from
[LAWS]11.4(f)
The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not 'waiting to play the ball' and the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.[/LAWS]

with a particular emphasis on the highlighted area.
He reasoned that the ball was not played, rather it was charged.

 

[Chunky Charvis]

I did this in my game at the weekend.
In my case, it was 10m from the try line... the ball was charged down, an offside player in front gathered the bouncing ball and touched down for a "try".
I disallowed it and gave a penalty where he was offside. Cue massive appeals then and post-match...

RFU Assessor was happy and said it was a good decision.

OB - you may be able to shed light on some of this confusion - I believe at one time (1950s/60s?) that charging down was not considered "playing the ball". Is this correct? Explains why some still think this is ok.

 

[leaguerefaus]

that's gotta be rare !

I don't make a habit out of it, but nothing is more annoying than being told you are wrong when you know you are not

 

[Blackberry]

Assessor's reasoning was from
[LAWS]11.4(f)
The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not 'waiting to play the ball' and the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.[/LAWS]
with a particular emphasis on the highlighted area.
He reasoned that the ball was not played, rather it was charged.

The player can still be offside under normal law (the excerpt here is about the 10 metre law), would that work?

 

[Chogan]

The player can still be offside under normal law (the excerpt here is about the 10 metre law), would that work?

It doesn't make sense to me. As I read it, the charge down only exempts team-mates of the kicker from the 10m law.

 

[Blackberry]

The player can still be offside under normal law (the excerpt here is about the 10 metre law), would that work?

Ignore! I was arguing a different point.

Here's what I give; if a red player half charges down a kick and it flies past him to a blue player, that blue player is onside. If on the other hand, the red player has tried to play the ball, but fumbled it past to the blue player, the blue player is offside.

As a useful rule of thumb, if the red player deflects the ball as its rising from the kick, its a charge down, if he deflects it coming down, he's tried to play it.
Let the abuse begin.......

 

[Taff]

Assessor's reasoning was from 11.4(f)

Sorry, but what has the 10m Law got to do with it?

You didn't penalise his under the 10m Law; you penalised him (correctly IMO) for playing the ball while offside in open play.

The definitions say that touching the ball is playing the ball. And that is good enough for me.

The only caveat I would suggest is if the charged down ball as good as lands in the offside team mates lap. In that case ie where he didn't have time to think, I reckon I would give a scrum for accidental offside, rather than a PK.

 

[OB..]

OB - you may be able to shed light on some of this confusion - I believe at one time (1950s/60s?) that charging down was not considered "playing the ball". Is this correct? Explains why some still think this is ok.

The 1959 laws merely specified that a charge down was not a knock-on, but there was no reference to it in the offside/onside laws.

 

[talbazar]

It looks like I'm not with the majority here, but answer this:
"What is the Blue player who scored a try offside off?"

I know, he is in front of his team mate who last "played" the ball.
But, none of the offside law related to kick apply (hence the exception on the 10 metres law).
Wouldn't you be able to say that a charge down can be associated with an unintentional throw forward?

[LAWS]11.1 Offside in general play
(a)
A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:
Interferes with play or,
Moves forward, towards the ball or
Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal.[/LAWS]

To me penalising that blue player is penalising positive play... So I'd rather find a reason not to blow the whistle...

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

 

[menace]

It looks like I'm not with the majority here, but answer this:
"What is the Blue player who scored a try offside off?"

I know, he is in front of his team mate who last "played" the ball. THIS!!

[LAWS]11.1 Offside in general play
A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:
Interferes with play or,
Moves forward, towards the ball or
Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
[/LAWS]

And cause he was in front of his own player who last played the ball, he then failed 2 criteria to be penalised!

PK everyday and twice on Sunday! No need to be so soft. C'mon, they're big boys now...they should know if they're in front of their player that they shouldn't be touching the ball. Nothing accidental about that! And even littler boys need to learn the basic premis of the game about being in front of your own player means you're offside (and out of the game until you're back on side). Teach them well with a hard earned PK and they might learn it quicker.

 

[menace]

My assessor stated otherwise as a charge down does not constitute having played the ball.

I think Pollock and his ARs in the Aus vs Ire game had learnt from your assessor! Genia kicked into the legs of Ire player and ire player, who had ran into the oz attacking line to tackle #10 (?) was about 3m in front picked up the ball and was not pinged. Couldn't get more offside but it was 'not seen'.