Coaches. Gotta love 'em :o)

[beckett50]

Yesterday, refereeing two premiership academy sides.

Home team have a 2nd row in the sin-bin so next scrum numbers have to be matched. Turns out the next scrum is 5m attacking scrum, 5m in from touch too (on the side of the away coach)

I tell green that they have to drop a man from the scrum to match. Coach chirps up from the touch line teliing her #8 to stay put and bind at 8. i tell him that as all are 1 man down you are not permitted to have a #8. "How are we supposed to have a #8 move?" comes the plaintif cry from the touch line

Like its my problem? Why don't these people read the LotG?

 

[FlipFlop]

I assume this is a U19 game? Or a senior game?

 

[Donal1988]

I had a similar thing recently. The words "health and safety" go a long way.

 

[andyscott]

They do read the laws, and they tell you, oh yeah I am a ref too :chin:

 

[beckett50]

I assume this is a U19 game? Or a senior game?

U-19.

 

[crossref]

i have had the same thing, with similar touchline dismay.

it's a peculiarity in the laws which disadvantages the non-offending team as with no hindmost player, and no wheeling allowed to create one, it means no pick up from the scrum is possible. Which is quite a help to the defenders, with one fewer option to worry about.

 

[Davet]

If the two 2nd rows are of slightly different hights then surely one will have his feet to further back than the other even if the scrum is absolutely square.

Wouldn't that make him the hindmost player?

And whilst no deliberate wheel is allowed then scrums to do wheel accidentally on a regular basis, upto 45 degrees is OK, so again quite easy for one player end up as hindmost, surely?

 

[Casey Bee]

i have had the same thing, with similar touchline dismay.

it's a peculiarity in the laws which disadvantages the non-offending team as with no hindmost player, and no wheeling allowed to create one, it means no pick up from the scrum is possible. Which is quite a help to the defenders, with one fewer option to worry about.

You sure about that?

 

[OB..]

You sure about that?

U19 Variations Law 20.11 (a) No wheeling. A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum.

 

[Casey Bee]

U19 Variations Law 20.11 (a) No wheeling. A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum.

So wheel it unintentionally?

 

[Tryer]

I agree with the matching numbers issue from a saftey perspective, but I think the team with the YC should be forced to match numbers. If that means subbing a back to allow a forward on then so be it and we should use the same process as with used when FR receive a YC.

 

[Donal1988]

Tryer - bear in mind this is underage rugby.

U19 Laws apply.

A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.

What that tells me is that putting a winger into the scrum is a no-no at underage level.

 

[Casey Bee]

Tryer - bear in mind this is underage rugby.

U19 Laws apply.

A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.

What that tells me is that putting a winger into the scrum is a no-no at underage level.

Tryer is suggesting taking a winger off to get a forward on to match no.s with appropriate players too...

 

[Donal1988]

Oh right. Misread that sorry Tryer :hap:

 

[crossref]

I think that
- the team without the YC should decide how many in the scrum.
- if the team with the YC needs to make a sub, that's fine, it's rolling subs after all.

I don't see there is any safety issue with an inexperienced back packing down in the back row, and the U19 variations agree with that: only the front five have to be STE.

obviously if a team does not have five STE then uncontested, but that's business as usual problem.

 

[crossref]

And whilst no deliberate wheel is allowed then scrums to do wheel accidentally on a regular basis, upto 45 degrees is OK, so again quite easy for one player end up as hindmost, surely?

- but if an attacking 5m scrum wheels the 45deg necessary to make a flanker clearly the hindmost player... and then he picks up.... then you've got to think it happened deliberately, haven't you?

 

[Casey Bee]

- but if an attacking 5m scrum wheels the 45deg necessary to make a flanker clearly the hindmost player... and then he picks up.... then you've got to think it happened deliberately, haven't you?

This is why I said make sure (as a team) that it is unintentional. This time I'll add a :wink:

If the team has a good captain with lots of diplomacy then said captain could smooth issue with referee?? 'Sir, we have been disadvantaged through no fault of our own and now can't play our No. 8'. The scrum appears to have turned unintentionally and we therefore had a hindmost player, who being an intelligent sort, picked the ball up... '

 

[OB..]

If the team has a good captain with lots of diplomacy then said captain could smooth issue with referee?? 'Sir, we have been disadvantaged through no fault of our own and now can't play our No. 8'. The scrum appears to have turned unintentionally and we therefore had a hindmost player, who being an intelligent sort, picked the ball up... '

You mean he should challenge the referee's decision like that and expect the referee to change his mind?

He might like to seek clarification as to how the referee sees the issue, but surely no more.

 

[crossref]

a diplomatic and intelligent captain like that might, further, invite me to PK the opposition for wheeling the scrum, hoping to trap his team into a suspicious pick up

 

[Casey Bee]

You mean he should challenge the referee's decision like that and expect the referee to change his mind?

He might like to seek clarification as to how the referee sees the issue, but surely no more.

Of course, seek clarification at the appropriate time, not challenge... carry out the captain's role. Is much not made of Richie McC's captaincy in terms of his dealings with ref? His supposed tact, diplomacy and ability to plant seeds of thought with the ref. ...'Hey Sir, I'm not making a big fuss about it but did you see that England player give me an illegal forearm smash while I was trapped on the floor?'...