Collapsing Rucks

[Dickie E]

Our GMGs say this:

[LAWS]Neck rolls
• World Rugby is working to eliminate the practice of ‘neck grab and rolls’ in the act of cleaning out a player. Guidelines for referees are as follows:
o PK = Neck grab, without twisting, which cleans out a player at the tackle or ruck
o YC = Neck grab & roll (likely bringing the player to the ground)
o RC = Neck grab & roll with a forceful ‘dumping action’ in bringing the player to the ground[/LAWS]

I infer from this that, provided there is no neck contact, crocodile rolls are OK.

 

[mcroker]

Are they in contravention of 16.15 ? Yes.

Except we have top level refs telling us that’s not how we should interpret 16.15.

I have just been back to look at the 2014 laws that were in place when the clarification permitting them was issues - and this area of law really hasn’t changed that much, so perhaps the clarification still has applicability. “Body rolls are permissible head rolls should be penalised”.

 

[crossref]

Except we have top level refs telling us that’s not how we should interpret 16.15.

”.

Well, that's the same thing

Bottom line : despite what 16.15 says, modern practice is to allow players to collapse rucks using any of a variety of techniques to do so. (not neck rolls, though)

To the extent that in the Pro game collapsing rucks is pretty much the only thing they do ! Well, that and forming long human crouching chains to give the 9 lots of space to box kick

 

[Zebra1922]

....... Well, that and forming long human crouching chains to give the 9 lots of space to box kick

which is bizarrely permitted in law and not just allowed by convention (as long as everyone is bound properly which frequently is not the case, something I warn about a lot but rarely penalise on the grounds of materiality)

 

[Arabcheif]

My team were coached on croc rolls once. It resulted in our Vice Captain (at the time), dislocating his knee. I think they are dangerous but can see nothing specifically saying that they are banned.

Question about binding, I can find no mention in the Laws of what constitutes a bind. I've been advised by refs and coaches that all that is needed is to be in contact with the player on the ground or a player already in the ruck (legally). What's anyone's thoughts for this.

 

[crossref]

My team were coached on croc rolls once. It resulted in our Vice Captain (at the time), dislocating his knee. I think they are dangerous but can see nothing specifically saying that they are banned.

that made me laugh

far from being banned - they have been specifically designated legal
https://laws.worldrugby.org/index.p...upto&year=2014&clarification=1004&language=EN

Question about binding, I can find no mention in the Laws of what constitutes a bind. I've been advised by refs and coaches that all that is needed is to be in contact with the player on the ground or a player already in the ruck (legally). What's anyone's thoughts for this.

[LAWS]15.7 A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]Defintions : Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.[/LAWS]

If Law 15 was enforced the game would look very different indeed!

 

[Zebra1922]

My team were coached on croc rolls once. It resulted in our Vice Captain (at the time), dislocating his knee. I think they are dangerous but can see nothing specifically saying that they are banned.

Question about binding, I can find no mention in the Laws of what constitutes a bind. I've been advised by refs and coaches that all that is needed is to be in contact with the player on the ground or a player already in the ruck (legally). What's anyone's thoughts for this.

I interpret a bind as contact with the full arm, not just resting a handoff a shoulder. Can't recall exactly where I got the definition/requirement from.

 

[Flish]

It used to say (for rucks);

[LAWS]
[FONT=&quot]A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm[/FONT]
[/LAWS]

it doesn’t now

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Some refs penalise the following but I don't. Players joining a ruck by grabbing one of the standing legs of the oppositon and lifting it up so that the would-be jackaller falls to floor.? Its a very effective way to clear-out and works when the jackaller is much bigger than you.
Is that OK or dangerous in your books ?

 

[crossref]

It used to say (for rucks);

[LAWS]
[FONT="]A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm[/FONT]
[/LAWS]

it doesn’t now

but binding is defined as above - so it amounts to the same

 

[Flish]

Ah, moved then, good, look forward so seeing full arm binds at the elite level this year then!

 

[crossref]

Some refs penalise the following but I don't. Players joining a ruck by grabbing one of the standing legs of the oppositon and lifting it up so that the would-be jackaller falls to floor.? Its a very effective way to clear-out and works when the jackaller is much bigger than you.
Is that OK or dangerous in your books ?

It's not dangerous.
It is illegal under 15.16.b
Unless you can do it one handed it's also illegal under 15.7

But yes, it's allowed

 

[Arabcheif]

The definition of Binding you mentioned seem to be applicable to Laws 9 Foul Play and 19 Scrum. Nothing below mentions binding in rucks (or mauls for that matter).

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law 9: Foul play
A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law 19: Scrum
All players’ binding is maintained for the duration of the scrum.
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Match official signals: Failure to bind
One arm out-stretched as if binding. Other hand moves up and down arm to indicate the extent of a full bind.
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law Application Guidelines
Five key areas of refereeing
Four calls and four actions: crouch means crouch, touch means touch, etc. Binding of props on body, not arm, of opponent. Hit straight and stay straight
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law Application Guidelines
IRB Maul Working Group Outcomes
"Binding.
[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law Application Guidelines
Charging into the ruck
Players entering a ruck must do so in accordance with the Laws of the Game. Referees are reminded that appropriate binding is a requirement, and charging into a ruck is dangerous play and must be penalised as such. The video clips below all show examples of illegal charges into the ruck.



[/FONT]

 

[crossref]

[LAWS]
JOINING A RUCK


An arriving player must be on their feet and join from behind their offside line.

A player may join alongside but not in front of the hindmost player.

A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body.
[/LAWS]

The definition of bind is in the definitions

 

[Phil E]

The definition of Binding you mentioned seem to be applicable to Laws 9 Foul Play and 19 Scrum. Nothing below mentions binding in rucks (or mauls for that matter).

Law 15
[LAWS]JOINING A RUCK
7. A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or
be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body.[/LAWS]

Law 16
[LAWS]JOINING A MAUL
7. Players joining a maul must:
b. Bind on to the hindmost player in the maul.[/LAWS]

 

[Arabcheif]

I saw that, but in the definitions, when you click on Binding, it takes you to a page that I pasted above. The definition of that Binding seems to apply for scrums. For rucking it's mentioned merely in respect to charging into a ruck. "[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Charging includes any contact made without [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]binding[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] onto another player in the ruck or maul."

[/FONT]If one must use full arms to bind half the rucks I've seen in my games I've played have had incorrect binding. There's be about 30 pens a game.[FONT=fs_blakeregular]

[/FONT]

 

[crossref]

I saw that, but in the definitions, when you click on Binding, it takes you to a page that I pasted above. The definition of that Binding seems to apply for scrums. For rucking it's mentioned merely in respect to charging into a ruck. "[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Charging includes any contact made without [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]binding[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] onto another player in the ruck or maul."

[/FONT]If one must use full arms to bind half the rucks I've seen in my games I've played have had incorrect binding. There's be about 30 pens a game.[FONT=fs_blakeregular]

[/FONT]

Indeed ... Many ruck laws are not enforced ..

 

[Arabcheif]

Fair enough. If/when I start reffing I'll be sure to make sure I enforce those Laws. Thanks

 

[OB..]

A ruck is formed by contact over the ball. This caters for two players both going for the ball. Thereafter players joining the ruck must bind.

 

[crossref]

Fair enough. If/when I start reffing I'll be sure to make sure I enforce those Laws. Thanks

This way madness lies !

(I am joking .. sort of)