deliberate into touch after knock-on

[Dickie E]

I thought this was interesting in France v Ireland game in 10th minute.

Green knock ball forward then Blue deliberately knock ball into touch. Decision was penalty & YC.

What makes it interesting for me is that as soon as Blue touched the ball we had a Green knock-on and, effectively, advantage to Blue. So anything that happens after that (barring a punch or similar) will either be advantage over or a Blue scrum.

Except, of course, deliberate into touch is foul play so that out trumps the knock on.


[LAWS]Law 7.2.c: The non-offending team commits an infringement before they have gained an advantage. The referee stops the game and applies the sanction for the first infringement. If either or both infringements are for foul play, the referee applies the appropriate sanction(s) for the offence(s)
[/LAWS]

PS: Wayne Barnes missed last weekend's Gallagher final due to contracting covid and a short week later he is reffing a Test match. Amazing. I would have thought he'd be in a couple of weeks isolation.

 

[Treadmore]

I thought this was interesting in France v Ireland game in 10th minute.

Green knock ball forward then Blue deliberately knock ball into touch. Decision was penalty & YC.

What makes it interesting for me is that as soon as Blue touched the ball we had a Green knock-on and, effectively, advantage to Blue. So anything that happens after that (barring a punch or similar) will either be advantage over or a Blue scrum.

Except, of course, deliberate into touch is foul play so that out trumps the knock on.


[LAWS]Law 7.2.c: The non-offending team commits an infringement before they have gained an advantage. The referee stops the game and applies the sanction for the first infringement. If either or both infringements are for foul play, the referee applies the appropriate sanction(s) for the offence(s)
[/LAWS]

PS: Wayne Barnes missed last weekend's Gallagher final due to contracting covid and a short week later he is reffing a Test match. Amazing. I would have thought he'd be in a couple of weeks isolation.

Harsh call - green deliberately knocked it forward, one could argue

 

[crossref]

Green was juggling ..

 

[Decorily]

Harsh call - green deliberately knocked it forward, one could argue

I didn't see it as green knocking it forward deliberately or otherwise.
No more so than if he had been juggling to control a ball at chest height etc.
Possibly when I see a replay I'll change my view.

Edit.....I am Irish though! !

 

[Decorily]

Green was juggling ..

Yes....I think we agree

 

[crossref]

Yes green was juggling, blue could have simply tackled him

 

[Dickie E]

my point here is, while law 7 says foul play, do they really mean dangerous play?

Consider. White knock the ball on, Black gather and ref calls "knock on, advantage Black". While running the ball Black run an obstruction line and ref blows whistle. Does the ref go with scrum Black, no advantage or penalty White for the foul play of obstruction?

 

[Decorily]

my point here is, while law 7 says foul play, do they really mean dangerous play?

The term 'foul play ' is widely misunderstood and often misused.
I think generally when it is used iit is meant to mean 'dangerous play'.

 

[Dickie E]

The term 'foul play ' is widely misunderstood and often misused.
I think generally when it is used iit is meant to mean 'dangerous play'.

Does that mean that you think that Barnes made the wrong decision?

 

[Decorily]

Does that mean that you think that Barnes made the wrong decision?

No, not at all.
I'm simply referring to my experience of the use of the term 'foul play'.

Edit....my real time impression was that it should have been a penalty try. I've seen one replay and saw nothing in that one replay to change my mind.

 

[Dickie E]

I didn't see it as green knocking it forward deliberately or otherwise.
No more so than if he had been juggling to control a ball at chest height etc.
Possibly when I see a replay I'll change my view.

Edit.....I am Irish though! !

Juggling. Not in law book as far as I can see. But if I understand you, are you saying that if Blue had caught the ball instead of knocking it dead, it would not have been deemed as a knock on, but as a strip?

Here is what the law says and this what the Green player did:

[LAWS]Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. [/LAWS]

 

[Flish]

Can’t find the specific variation, but it’s under possession, as in if you are attempting to gain possession (juggling) you are deemed to be in possession and can be tackled, which is what I saw happen, if not for the deliberate knock out green would have caught his juggle, and to be honest I thought a PT too.

 

[crossref]

Can’t find the specific variation, but it’s under possession, as in if you are attempting to gain possession (juggling) you are deemed to be in possession and can be tackled, which is what I saw happen, if not for the deliberate knock out green would have caught his juggle, and to be honest I thought a PT too.

Yes. But if blue had merely touched the ball, not knocking into touch, it would have been knock on by green, scrum blue

 

[Flish]

True, and indeed if blue had tried to take possession (juggle) it then even if the knock was not called they would have avoided a penalty and any extra sanction on top

 

[Decorily]

Can’t find the specific variation, but it’s under possession, as in if you are attempting to gain possession (juggling) you are deemed to be in possession and can be tackled, which is what I saw happen, if not for the deliberate knock out green would have caught his juggle, and to be honest I thought a PT too.

Attempting to gain 'control' might be a better way of putting it.....but yes the player is deemed to be in possession and is tackleable!

 

[Decorily]

Juggling. Not in law book as far as I can see. But if I understand you, are you saying that if Blue had caught the ball instead of knocking it dead, it would not have been deemed as a knock on, but as a strip?

Here is what the law says and this what the Green player did:

[LAWS]Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. [/LAWS]

If the green player had deliberately slapped/tapped/otherwise propelled the ball forward in an attempt to gain an advantage by preventing the blue player gaining possession then it would have been a penalty against green. In my opinion this is not what happened ie green was just attempting to gain control/possession and the ball happened to go forward in the process.

That's how I referee it based on years of listening to 'guidance ' and clarifications and that doesn't mean that I am right! !

 

[Dickie E]

If the green player had deliberately slapped/tapped/otherwise propelled the ball forward in an attempt to gain an advantage by preventing the blue player gaining possession then it would have been a penalty against green. In my opinion this is not what happened ie green was just attempting to gain control/possession and the ball happened to go forward in the process.

That's how I referee it based on years of listening to 'guidance ' and clarifications and that doesn't mean that I am right! !

You are right. There is no suggestion that Green did anything intentionally illegal. It was a common or garden variety knock-on. If he'd regained the ball it would have been play on. But he didn't, it was touched by Blue, so Blue scrum ... EXCEPT Blue then committed egregious & unnecessary foul play.

But what makes it interesting for me is considering what Barnes would have done if Blue had committed some other type of non-dangerous foul play, such as obstruction or intentionally knocking the ball forward. Would he still have penalised Blue or come back for the scrum?

 

[Dickie E]

maybe this is a better question.

Let's say that, after the Green knock-on, the ball hits the ground then Blue intentionally knocks ball into touch. Would Barnes have still gone to his pocket?

 

[Treadmore]

If the green player had deliberately slapped/tapped/otherwise propelled the ball forward in an attempt to gain an advantage by preventing the blue player gaining possession

that is what he did, in fact do. If green hadn't hit it forward blue could have easily got the ball.

as for juggling, green jumps to his the ball forward and it goes up. The ball still appears to be rising as green is landing! And he takes 2 steps after landing before he's close to the ball again (just before blue hits it away). I'm not so sure that meets the descriptions of "juggling" that I've previously read on here!

 

[Treadmore]

maybe this is a better question.

Let's say that, after the Green knock-on, the ball hits the ground then Blue intentionally knocks ball into touch. Would Barnes have still gone to his pocket?

I would say yes he should given his actual decision...however, I reckon he wouldn't (and no one would expect it)