Deliberate knock ons

[oldman]

I have just watched the Leicester Tigers game and seen Jonny may sent off for two yellow cards, both for deliberate Knock On's, in both cases the ball hit his arm, no forward motion by his arm.
My question if a player is standing with his arms out to block the path of a pass, his arms don't move how can he deliberately knock-on? He does not move his hand/arm towards the ball. In soccer it must be ball to have why is it not the same in rugby?

 

[crossref]

I saw the second one only.
In real time I had the same view .. it seemed harsh .
In slow motion everything looks worse.

 

[L'irlandais]

I dislike Matt O Connor’s post match comment.

No complaints on the red card, that's the way they are officiating it at the moment.

Obtuse. Two weeks ago he was accusing Munster of cheating at the breakdown. Now it’s the way matches are being officiated. If he spent a little more time focusing on the variables he and his team can control, perhaps Tigers wouldn’t be a mere shadow of their former selves. Munster went a man down against Leicester last week and won. Quality teams can dig deep when they have to, not so with the current setup at Welford road. Time for a bit of soul searching and looking closer to home for the source of their woes.

All professional players know if you attempt to intercept the ball, you’d better be sure you get both hands to it. Nothing new about that.

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
...

nothing about forward movment of the arm, to decide if it was deliberate. Both times he attempted to block the ball, there’s the intent on his part. Of course he didn’t intend for it to go forward. The offense is spoiling the opponent’s pass with little hope of securing possession himself.

 

[ChrisR]

It's one thing to award a PK on an iffy 'intentional knock-on' but to throw the YC on top is really harsh and serves no real purpose.

 

[crossref]

Of course as soon as you have awarded one YC for a deliberate ko it makes it harder to give PK only for the next one

 

[DocY]

I've not seen the incidents, but if there were a directive saying "it's not a deliberate knock on if the player's arms aren't moving" or somesuch, what would the effect be?

I'd expect to see it adopted as a tactic with players and coaches arguing "technically it wasn't deliberate". To me, that's against the spirit of the laws. If you're deliberately blocking a pass (not trying to intercept) then it's a risk you take - if it goes forward, it's a penalty.

Regarding the YC, I see a deliberate knock on as a professional foul and a YC is my default position for that. I'd have to have some excuse not to give a YC if I've decided the KO was deliberate.

 

[KML1]

My question if a player is standing with his arms out to block the path of a pass, his arms don't move how can he deliberately knock-on?

That's not a positive action or attempt to gain posession so, in my view, they get what's coming. If you can stick your arm out to block the path of a pass, you can stick your hand out to try and gain possession of the ball.

 

[Wedgie]

....If you can stick your arm out to block the path of a pass, you can stick your hand out to try and gain possession of the ball.

...and the difference is....???

Anyone who has played centre (especially) has put themselves in a position to cut out the pass, whilst not going too far forward as to open up a huge gap inside. (At grass roots) it is instinctive to put you hand out. If it sticks - you are a hero. If it doesn't you risk a YC (and, possibly, PT). I have a lot of empathy for people in this position and think there should be more middle ground....

 

[Phil E]

...and the difference is....???

Anyone who has played centre (especially) has put themselves in a position to cut out the pass, whilst not going too far forward as to open up a huge gap inside. (At grass roots) it is instinctive to put you hand out. If it sticks - you are a hero. If it doesn't you risk a YC (and, possibly, PT). I have a lot of empathy for people in this position and think there should be more middle ground....

The difference is "did the player have a realistic chance of catching the ball or not".

 

[beckett50]

...and the difference is....???

One is negative play and the other is positive.

Cause and effect. Actions and consequences.

FWIW I watched the match and didn't have an issue with either decision. Not wishing to be pedantic but if you've already been subject to a YC you know that the next coloured card will be a Red, and so you stop making those 50/50 plays. Silly decision making by the player.