Dissenting FK

[Donal1988]

I was running touch today and this happened. The decision feels awkward and I want to get clarity.

- Referee awarded FK awarded at scrum to White on half way line.
- Black #4 dissents the decision and the referee marches him back 10.
- White captain asks referee if he can kick for touch. Referee says yes.
- White 10 kicks ball straight into touch
- I signal a lineout to Black where ball was kicked
- Referee approaches me and asks why I have done this, I explain he gave FK not PK
- He says dissent automatically upgraded it to PK and we gave lineout to White where ball crossed plain of touch.

Who was right? Referee definitely did not signal a PK at any stage. And even if he did would you march 10m AND upgrade to PK or one or the other.

 

[chbg]

Law 10.4(s) Players must not dispute the referee's decisions. PK. It is not an infringement at the FK (Law 21.8) for which the sanction is a 2nd FK.

 

[Agustin]

Did he signal for a FK for the dissent? Or no signal at all?

I'd have given a PK. Dissent is separate from the FK offence.

 

[Davet]

Dissent would be a PK at the place of dissent, ie where the dissenter was standing - ref should not advance the mark 10 from the FK. He should signal Penalty as well.

If the ref advances the kick 10m then it stays as a FK.

You were right to be confused, ref was wrong.

 

[Scarlet Al]

Dissent would be a PK at the place of dissent, ie where the dissenter was standing - ref should not advance the mark 10 from the FK. He should signal Penalty as well.

If the ref advances the kick 10m then it stays as a FK.

You were right to be confused, ref was wrong.

Or is it where the game would restart... i.e. If you were at a lineout and someone 5 metres outside the line disputes the decision, I'd give the PK on the 15, not where the guy was standing... Same as if someone was facing a conversion under the sticks and disputes, PK would be where game would restart - i.e. on Halfway.

 

[Donal1988]

He gave a FK at the scrum. He then marched the other team back 10m. They were the only signals. I ended up getting jeered from the sideline for a few minutes afterwards for "not knowing my stuff", "being too inexperienced" etc. It was a bit annoying.

However golden rule - make sure the ref doesn't look stupid.

 

[Mickman]

However golden rule - make sure the ref doesn't look stupid.

Had something similar today but in general play - I was AR

1. ball last touched by white bouncing toward touch (roughly 50m line)
2. crosses touch line (about hip high)
3. white player hits/ slaps ball back into FoP but has foot in touch
4. I raise flag referee does not see flag
5. play continues and blue gather ball and score a try through some great running rugby and good passing inter play
6. Referee awards try straight away

Should I have stayed with flag raised at line of touch or just put flag down and followed play?

P.S. no bearing on result as blue already 50 plus points ahead AND wearing comms gear but not working

 

[andyscott]

Had something similar today but in general play - I was AR

1. ball last touched by white bouncing toward touch (roughly 50m line)
2. crosses touch line (about hip high)
3. white player hits/ slaps ball back into FoP but has foot in touch
4. I raise flag referee does not see flag
5. play continues and blue gather ball and score a try through some great running rugby and good passing inter play
6. Referee awards try straight away

Should I have stayed with flag raised at line of touch or just put flag down and followed play?

P.S. no bearing on result as blue already 50 plus points ahead AND wearing comms gear but not working

Support the referee put your flag down.

The referee when he has ARs should have a signal as in, if I dont see a thumbs up I will approach you and speak to you.

Sounds like the referee forgot he had ARs.

Did you have comms kit?

 

[Davet]

Scarlet Al - yes place of offence or as per Law regarding the mark under the circumstances, I sort of assumed all that, - teach me not to assume things on this forum.

Golden Rule - don't make the ref look stupid; if he is, why should I fall on my sword for him?

Basically, so as not to ruin his authority in that game - but afterwards he owes me an apology, possibly public, and lots of beer.

 

[Mat 04]

I would have kept my flag up. Coaches and spectators will not understand the "golden rule" when you explain to them later on why an AR has made a decision and then changed his mind when the referee wasn't even aware of it.

 

[Deeps]

It's an interesting concept where a player 'grumbles' when a FK is awarded. I prefer to march his team a further 10 for not retiring immediately and tend to reserve a PK for dissent after I have advised the skipper that I am getting a little too much 'help'.

In terms of escalation I find it works better that way.

 

[crossref]

Had something similar today but in general play - I was AR

1. ball last touched by white bouncing toward touch (roughly 50m line)
2. crosses touch line (about hip high)
3. white player hits/ slaps ball back into FoP but has foot in touch
4. I raise flag referee does not see flag
5. play continues and blue gather ball and score a try through some great running rugby and good passing inter play
6. Referee awards try straight away

Should I have stayed with flag raised at line of touch or just put flag down and followed play?

P.S. no bearing on result as blue already 50 plus points ahead AND wearing comms gear but not working

you would think that the ref would glance in direction of TJ after a close call like that.. presumably it was a kick ahead and you were some way from the ball

presumably plenty of spectators and players will have noticed the flag so the referee is going to have a tricky moment whatever you do... so you might as well do the right thing and keep your flag up.
- the ref's error is momentary carelessness (should have looked at you after a tap-back v close to line). He can apologise and admit he missed something
- your action - one way or another - is a deliberate decision that you have to justify with why you were right.

 

[Casey Bee]

Support the referee put your flag down.

The referee when he has ARs should have a signal as in, if I dont see a thumbs up I will approach you and speak to you.

Sounds like the referee forgot he had ARs.

Did you have comms kit?

I just don't see how this is possibly correct?
As an AR you KNOW the ball has gone out unyet you deliberately ignore it and help compound the error and allow an unfair try to be scored.

Don't see how that helps in 'not making the referee look stupid'.

 

[PaulDG]

6. Referee awards try straight away

Should I have stayed with flag raised at line of touch or just put flag down and followed play?

You needed to follow play -as an AR, you might have seen foul play or something.

But after the score, you needed to get the refs attention somehow and let him know about the "touch".

Referees can alter their decisions after consulting ARs.

 

[andyscott]

I just don't see how this is possibly correct?
As an AR you KNOW the ball has gone out unyet you deliberately ignore it and help compound the error and allow an unfair try to be scored.

Don't see how that helps in 'not making the referee look stupid'.

You need to agree your protocol for checking before the game.

I want a thumbs up or a try on the comms, any thing not right, then stand still do not do anything on the corner flag, or with comms say no ( do not use the word try)

That way I have a look up and make my decision. It should have been briefed and planned earlier.

You may KNOW something has happened as an AR but remember you are an Ar, not an R assist do not over rule. The referee is sole judge of fact not you
Without previously agreed protocols you have to do the same as we ask players, respect the referees decision (right or wrong)

 

[Casey Bee]

You need to agree your protocol for checking before the game.

I want a thumbs up or a try on the comms, any thing not right, then stand still do not do anything on the corner flag, or with comms say no ( do not use the word try)

That way I have a look up and make my decision. It should have been briefed and planned earlier.

You may KNOW something has happened as an AR but remember you are an Ar, not an R assist do not over rule. The referee is sole judge of fact not you
Without previously agreed protocols you have to do the same as we ask players, respect the referees decision (right or wrong)

So you have pre arranged protocol that if the R does not see you having flagged touch you put your flag down and ignore it? Surely that just makes the R and AR look stupid?

If you had comms would AR not say 'cooey, look over here, I've got my flag up cos the ball went into touch...' ... 'or maybe just 'touch'

 

[andyscott]

So you have pre arranged protocol that if the R does not see you having flagged touch you put your flag down and ignore it? Surely that just makes the R and AR look stupid?

If you had comms would AR not say 'cooey, look over here, I've got my flag up cos the ball went into touch...' ... 'or maybe just 'touch'

Err no dont be daft. :nono:

If the AR does not give me the thumbs up for whatever reason, I do not award the try, walk over listen to his reason then make a decision.

Comms err yeah self explanatory

 

[Casey Bee]

Err no dont be daft. :nono:

If the AR does not give me the thumbs up for whatever reason, I do not award the try, walk over listen to his reason then make a decision.

Comms err yeah self explanatory

So what do you do if the AR does not give you the thumbs up, you walk over, listen to his reason and he tells you he signalled for touch but you missed it?

 

[andyscott]

So what do you do if the AR does not give you the thumbs up, you walk over, listen to his reason and he tells you he signalled for touch but you missed it?

Go back for touch, simples.

That way nobody looks a Charlie and no one over rules the referee.

 

[Casey Bee]

Go back for touch, simples.

That way nobody looks a Charlie and no one over rules the referee.

I'm not really following you I'm afraid.
I'm presuming this is your procedure where no comms is in use or you would already have stopped due to advice via radio.
So if no comms, you follow play, the ball is put down for a try between the posts and you first check for a thumbs up from both touch judges before awarding it? If you don't get a thumbs up, you then go and get the report?