Don't you love it when...

PaulDG


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End of a close match, home side (who were apparently stuffed by away side last season but have had a few new players join) win by 5 points.

Away assistant coach shakes my hand and says "But you had an absolute shocker".

Know what? 8 or 9 years ago, that would have bothered me.

What bothers me now is that new refs have to deal with that cr*p too. I wonder how many we lose each season because of that sort of "Well, I had to tell him!" comment?
 

Taff


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I tend to ask both coaches and captains if everything's alright at half time. 95% of the time they are, or they just say something like "Can you please keep an eye on their SHs creeping offside". It's always the other SH and never their own - hey ho.

Anyway, my point is if the coaches are happy with your performance at half time, it's a bit mor difficult for them to say you had a "shocker" if their team eventually ends up losing by 1 point. :biggrin:
 
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leaguerefaus


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My usual response to a comment like that is 'right oh, champ', in the most condescending-, arrogant-sounding way possible :)
 

Toby Warren


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Thanks for the feedback coach.

But you're right - what are they trying to achieve - cover up their own team's shortcomings?
 

Blackberry


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A few weeks ago I took a stand against the accepted level of abuse we have all (players, coaches and refs) allowed to become the norm in the game. My view, and others of course may differ, is that it is essential for all the stakeholders that we work to stamp out dissent to ensure the game is safe, enjoyable and gives players an almost unique chance to compete physically, mentally but safely.

I was asked to do an U16 league match. The game began, it was well contested, the away side was gaining dominance. The home captain queried a couple of my decisions (I was quite comfortable with my calls) and reminded him very politely about his rights as a captain and how he should exercise them, also warning him about his future conduct. There was an incident where I did not give the outcome he had expected, he again dissented from my decision so I calmly pulled out the yellow, told him he had left me no option and told him to leave for 10 minutes.

shortly after there was an injury and I invited the coach on to tend to his player. He came on but instead queried me about why I had yellow carded his captain, who "had a right to ...." I asked the coach exactly what the captain's privilege is, he was unable to define it, I wondered silently if that was the cause of the problem. The coach then racked up his invective and suggested in that case I should police the scrum properly.

I've been around the block a few times, and I could see where this was leading. I thought carefully and prepared my words while he carried on. I asked him first to stop, suggesting he was being a bad role model to his charges. He did not heed this advice so I held both my arms out to silence him then said very calmly "This abuse is unacceptable and I believe it to be not only contrary to the spirit of the game, but also endangering the players' safety through incitement. What is going to happen now is that I am ceasing to take a part in this match". I had already moved the conversation to near the other coach, so I was able to say quickly to the other coach. "Andy, I am withdrawing from this match due to the other coach's behaviour" and left the field.

The home side's blazers were, quite simply, excellent. Supportive, apologetic and thanked me for the calm and businesslike way I had handled it. I was given a phone where the organiser of the league was waiting to speak to me, he was made aware of the details, thanked me and I left the ground. The local RFU man has also been in touch to say thanks, and I gather the coach in question, not at all a particularly choppy coach, has admitted he went too far and an internal disciplinary committee has resolved the issue. I think also the biggest lesson was for the 30 players on the pitch.

What I am finding out is that there is a huge groundswell of support out there to fight the abuse. I have only ever sent one person off in my career, it was last month; a coach in a national colts game. Make of this what you will, but that team assessed my performance over the seven areas as good in three and outstanding in four. That's after I had sent off one of their coaches. Its almost as if there is a (regretfully) silent majority out there equally detesting this abuse, and who are just waiting for someone to take a stand. I have come to believe that there is a small group of coaches / supporters who have gone unchallenged...we are as responsible for this as the other stakeholders... and do not enjoy the support of the majority.

On a procedural note, it is important that we make it easy for teams to feedback on us, so they must be confident that they will always be given grading cards to complete which takes away any feelings of helplessness on their part, and makes it clear that that is the correct and sole avenue of criticism.
 
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PaulDG


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Anyway, my point is if the coaches are happy with your performance at half time, it's a bit mor difficult for them to say you had a "shocker" if their team eventually ends up losing by 1 point. :biggrin:

In this case, the away side were very unhappy at half time (for reasons I'd rather not go into - let me say I'm completely comfortable with my decisions but they were on the wrong side of them so of course they weren't happy with them.). They'd come expecting an easy win, weren't getting one, so who's fault can that be...

The team actually played much better in the second half, no significant issues and almost won. It did go down to the final whistle. (Ended in a penalty against them when their winger got a good break, got isolated and so gave away a penalty for "holding on". Home side took the easy kick to touch. If he'd dodged the tackle he'd probably have gone under the posts as there was no one left to stop him and the conversion would have given them the game.)
 

Taff


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In this case, the away side were very unhappy at half time ... so of course they weren't happy with them. They'd come expecting an easy win, weren't getting one, so who's fault can that be..
Fair point, but a lot of games are pretty even at half time ... in which case a bit of feedback from both coaches might be good.

I still reckon if he's happy with your performance after 40 minutes, it make it more aukward for him to say you had a crap match after 80 minutes.
 

SimonSmith


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I tend to ask both coaches and captains if everything's alright at half time. 95% of the time they are, or they just say something like "Can you please keep an eye on their SHs creeping offside". It's always the other SH and never their own - hey ho.

Anyway, my point is if the coaches are happy with your performance at half time, it's a bit mor difficult for them to say you had a "shocker" if their team eventually ends up losing by 1 point. :biggrin:
That strikes me as pre-emptively defensive. I don't. Halftime is self refection and re focus
 

Dickie E


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Halftime is self refection and re focus

I agree. Discuss trends, etc with ARs and/or referee coach. Playing coaches should be more interested in spending the few short minutes with their players.
 

beckett50


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Often at my level I will get the coach or captain polite ask "anything for us?" To which I give a honest answer and leave it at that. I don't go looking for poInts but if I get a "they seem to be up very quickly" I'll give a courteous "Thanks, I am looking at the off-sides but at the moment they are fine, but I'll keep looking".
Keep it general and polite.
 

PaulDG


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Fair point, but a lot of games are pretty even at half time ... in which case a bit of feedback from both coaches might be good.

I don't think so.

Coaches are generally "one eyed". It's a rare coach indeed who's sufficiently supportive of refereeing that they'll give you any genuine feedback about your performance, most will only "help" you to the extent of pointing out things the other side are doing that you're not penalising.

Some will even "help" by telling you "you've got to get a grip on this game". That can be amusing when you're thinking to yourself "if your players continue the way they were in the last few minutes of that half, you'll be down to 10 men in the next 5 minutes."
 

Taff


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That strikes me as pre-emptively defensive.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. If you think there may be a problem later, what's wrong with that? And even if you don't think there's going to be a problem, I can't see the harm in cutting down any possible opportunities for a moan later.

I agree. Discuss trends, etc with ARs and/or referee coach.
ARs / Referee Coaches? I like you - you're funny. :biggrin: I count myself lucky if the game finishes with the same TJ I started with.

... Playing coaches should be more interested in spending the few short minutes with their players.
From my limited experience, the coaches and teams don't take the time I expect them to take, so time doesn't seem to be as issue for them - it doesn't take more than 5 seconds to check anyway. In most of the games I get the teams are usually trotting back to HWL before I expect them to.

I don't think so. Coaches are generally "one eyed". It's a rare coach indeed who's sufficiently supportive of refereeing that they'll give you any genuine feedback about your performance, most will only "help" you to the extent of pointing out things the other side are doing that you're not penalising.
We probably referee at hugely different levels then, because that's not been my experience. I would guess that in 95% of my games a quick "Everything OK coach?" will just get a "No problem Ref". The odd one may say for example "OK ... but can you watch the early shove" but I don't think I've ever have a coach "go off on one".
 
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andyscott


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I havent commented on your coaching ability, nor the standard of rugby of your team, please dont comment on my performance unless invited to do, is that clear fella?

Usually moves them onto the back foot.
 

SimonSmith


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You say that as if it's a bad thing. If you think there may be a problem later, what's wrong with that? And even if you don't think there's going to be a problem, I can't see the harm in cutting down any possible opportunities for a moan later.

I think it is, on balance. And it's unnecessary.

First off, you're opening the door for the coach to start offer you advice/opinion on how you're doing. I'm not sure I want to open that door at half time. What do you do with his advice? Follow it and let him think he's influenced you, or ignore it because you think he's wrong? In which case you set up a bad full time because he thinks you were rude by ignoring him.

I take the approach that half time is my time; that I probably have a better perspective on the match and my decision making than the coaches. if I need to adjust anything, I'll do that through a process of self reflection and chatting with ARs if I have them.

I struggle to see the upside to having that conversation with the coach.
 

leaguerefaus


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I think it is, on balance. And it's unnecessary.

First off, you're opening the door for the coach to start offer you advice/opinion on how you're doing. I'm not sure I want to open that door at half time. What do you do with his advice? Follow it and let him think he's influenced you, or ignore it because you think he's wrong? In which case you set up a bad full time because he thinks you were rude by ignoring him.

I take the approach that half time is my time; that I probably have a better perspective on the match and my decision making than the coaches. if I need to adjust anything, I'll do that through a process of self reflection and chatting with ARs if I have them.

I struggle to see the upside to having that conversation with the coach.
Agreed, Simon. I couldn't see much good coming from any talk with the coach.

If the captain has a question, or I need a word, I have it on the way off the field. Talking to coaches has minimal benefit (and in fact, probably some adverse effect) to both parties, from my perspective.

Besides, it's halftime, I want some bloody water, not a chat!
 

crossref


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I don't talk to the coaches.

If there's something specific to I want to say to the captain, half time is great opportunity.
likewise sometimes a captain wants to talk to me, that's fine, again half time is a good opportunity - but I wouldn't invite open ended comment from him
 

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I used to go over to both teams at half time. I no longer do. On reflection there was not a lot gained by the process. I'd guess that a lot of new refs will seek out "reassurance". It then can become a habit. The big problem is that it can so easily become a red rag to a (coaching) bull.
 

Phil E


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I used to go over to both teams at half time. I no longer do. On reflection there was not a lot gained by the process. I'd guess that a lot of new refs will seek out "reassurance". It then can become a habit. The big problem is that it can so easily become a red rag to a (coaching) bull.

I talk to both captains at half time.
I tell them what I expect from them in the second half.
Use your downtime wisely Luke.

I don't talk to coaches until we are in the bar afterwards.
 

Browner

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I don't think so.

Coaches are generally "one eyed". It's a rare coach indeed who's sufficiently supportive of refereeing that they'll give you any genuine feedback about your performance, most will only "help" you to the extent of pointing out things the other side are doing that you're not penalising.
"

"If it's not clock, interchanges, or player safety, then we do not speak coach" , ..."yes it's safety sir"...... "Ok then wait til I get the opposition coach to witness my answer to your query"

In front of the opposition coach, the initial coach usually goes mute !
 
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