Dragging players out of a ruck

[Ian_Cook]

I remember discussing with someone (possibly OB) a while back, the merits or otherwise of dragging players out of the ruck. I had thought it was considered dangerous play, however I can only find....

LAW 17.3: OTHER MAUL OFFENCES

(a) A player must not try to drag an opponent out of a maul.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

It is illegal to drag a player from a maul, but there does not appear to be anything preventing a player from pulling or dragging an opponent out of a ruck, or at least I cannot find anything in either Law 10 or 16 that would prevent it.

Any ideas?

 

[Dixie]

It would be hard to do it without being offside. I wouldn't necessarily view the arm action as a full bind upon the player dragged, so any foot in front of the back foot represents the dragger being offside.

 

[Pablo]

What Dixie said. In principle, Iain, I agree there's nothing to stop it happening, but I think 99% of draggers would most likely not meet the criteria for a full bind, and so would have effectively left the ruck. Keeping a fistful or two of jersey and dragging then makes them guilty of playing an opponent whilst offside.

 

[OB..]

Playing a player without the ball? If they are dragging a player out of the ruck, they can hardly be considered as a player in the ruck.

 

[FlipFlop]

Without consulting the good book (or pdf)...

..Aren't players only allowed to PUSH in a ruck (just like a maul, scrum etc)?

 

[Ian_Cook]

I was more thinking of the situation where a player is lying across the back of the ruck and the referee is not penalising him.

In the "good old days" that player would have been rucked/raked out of the way with feet, but these days you cannot so much as touch a player with your foot. So, what would be to stop one or two players, rather than joining the ruck, from simply grabbing this player and dragging him out of the way to free-up access to the ball.

 

[Bryan]

Ian, in that situation, I feel that by that point I've failed as a referee to manage the player, so instead opposition players have thought "feck this, the referee isn't doing anything about it so i will".

Typically you manage the player: either get him moving faster, or ensure the scrum-half has clear access to the ball and you tell the player not to move at all, then at the next opportunity in "down-time" tell him to move faster or expect the PK, boots, or both!

Dragging doesn't look good. The winger 50m away rushes in b/c he sees his buddy getting dragged out like a Greenpeace advocate protesting at a G8 conference...

Legal? Sure. preventable? Absolutely.

 

[Davet]

Agreed - it is a critical part of preventive management. If a side feel the need to police the breakdown the you aren't doing your job. If it starts to happen then simply blow up if the ball isn't clear an available immediately at a breakdown.

Play pile up rules until they get the picture, and if any hint of killing ball then ping and card.

 

[Dixie]

Without consulting the good book (or pdf)...

..Aren't players only allowed to PUSH in a ruck (just like a maul, scrum etc)?

Must be a lot of lineout PK's in your games, Flipflop. Clean catch, catcher lands with his back to the oppo goal line, supporters bound on either side to protect the ball. Ball-winning side gets a nudge on, 7 players move forward, one (ball winner) moves backward. PK for failing to push?

I accept your caveat about not consulting the .pdf, however

 

[Ian_Cook]

Thanks for the replies guys

Now the reason I ask this is because I saw this happen a couple of times in a club game a while back when I was standing on the sideline supporting our local side. Our players know I am an ex-referee and they asked me about it at the after-match, and I couldn't answer them.

Two visiting players came off the ruck, went back behind the hindmost foot and dragged a player out of it. The thing is, they were both on opposite sides of the ruck and the did it together so I figured it had to have been a pre-planned strategy. When it happened again later in the match I realised the SH was calling "blocker" and the forwards were responding.

After the second occasion, the ref made a comment about it to their captain. I didn't catch exactly what was said, but it was to the effect that their skipper was to to tell his players to make sure they didn't injure the player, and the skipper replied that they had to do this because "their players aren't rolling away" (I guess inferring the ref wasn't doing his job).

I noticed the referee was a lot stricter on not releasing and not rolling away after that. Perhaps their intent was to send a message to the referee. If so, it was obviously received loud and clear.

 

[OB..]

The thing is, they were both on opposite sides of the ruck and the did it together so I figured it had to have been a pre-planned strategy. .

Guess what name popped into my mind at this point!

 

[Ian_Cook]

Guess what name popped into my mind at this point!

Does it rhyme with ODD, DOD and ROD?