Drop goal attempt

[KieranW]

Theoretical situation. Blue 10 attempts drop goal, as the ball hits the ground he is tackled by red. Red doesn't take any of the ball during the tackle.

2 questions:

1) should red be penalised for tackling the man without the ball?

and if the answer to above is no then

2) should blue be penalised for a knock on?

 

[The Fat]

Theoretical situation. Blue 10 attempts drop goal, as the ball hits the ground he is tackled by red. Red doesn't take any of the ball during the tackle.

2 questions:

1) should red be penalised for tackling the man without the ball?

and if the answer to above is no then

2) should blue be penalised for a knock on?

OK, I'll stick my neck on the chopping block.
Tackler committed and ballcarrier attempts DG, tackle made. I would argue that at the time, blue still had control of the ball as he was attempting a DG (this is going to get the wolves out based on the definition of possession).
Blue knock-on, advantage/scrum red.

Similar scenario.
Blue 12 (the ball carrier) runs through the defensive line past red 13 and as he approaches red 15 he decides to chip the ball over red 15. As he is doing so, red 13 is chasing from behind and tackles blue 12 as he drops the ball towards his foot but does not make contact as he is tackled/knocked off balance.
Would you not decide advantage/scrum to red? If yes, then you are saying that blue 12 was still in control/possession (he was in the act of kicking ahead) when red 13 made the tackle.

 

[crossref]

We have discussed this many times, kieran
The tackle is ok, you can't make yourself immune to a tackle by executing a kick.

Whether the the attempted kick is a knock on or not, people disagree

 

[Phil E]

1) No

2) No

 

[leaguerefaus]

No argument about part 1 - definitely not a penalty.
Part 2 - a fair bit of a conjecture, although the previous discussion (plus several decisions made by international referees) favoured my view that if he fails to kick it, it is a knock-on. Let us know when you've decided what you would do, Kieran.

 

[ChrisR]

Play on. No whistle either way.

- - - Updated - - -

Play on. No whistle either way.

 

[KieranW]

No argument about part 1 - definitely not a penalty.
Part 2 - a fair bit of a conjecture, although the previous discussion (plus several decisions made by international referees) favoured my view that if he fails to kick it, it is a knock-on. Let us know when you've decided what you would do, Kieran.

Personally I'd give a knock on. It's in the law book there's no exemption for a failed kick. What are the main justifications for not awarding a knock on?

 

[The Fat]

Personally I'd give a knock on. It's in the law book there's no exemption for a failed kick. What are the main justifications for not awarding a knock on?

The tackle by red is high

 

[Phil E]

To me there is a difference between a kick attempt that fails; and a dropped ball that you attempt to kick.
The first is not a knock on, the second is.

 

[The Fat]

To me there is a difference between a kick attempt that fails; and a dropped ball that you attempt to kick.
The first is not a knock on, the second is.

Hhhhmmm.....:chin:

 

[OB..]

It's in the law book there's no exemption for a failed kick.

If it is a knock-on when the attempt to kick fails, why is it not a knock-on every time you release the ball forward for a kick?

There is in fact no formal exemption for any type of kick.

I agree we have to allow the release forward for a kick - it has been long established as acceptable. However it seems to me to be grossly unfair if what starts as an acceptable action can be turned into an infringement without any error by the would-be kicker, but solely due to fortuitous timing by the defender.

Of course it will often be tricky to decide if the release forward was actually caused by the tackle or was a freely made attempt to kick, but for me the theory is crystal clear (even if the IRB should at some stage decide to rule otherwise).

 

[menace]

Theoretical situation. Blue 10 attempts drop goal, as the ball hits the ground he is tackled by red. Red doesn't take any of the ball during the tackle.

2 questions:

1) should red be penalised for tackling the man without the ball?

and if the answer to above is no then

2) should blue be penalised for a knock on?

1) no. - he was committed when its that close
2) yes - knock on. Time it better next time.

 

[ckuxmann]

So if the kicker drops it and completely misses the kick, with no pressure, knock-on or not OB?

 

[leaguerefaus]

From the holy book:
Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground and kicked as it
rises from its first bounce.

If he doesn't kick it, it's obviously not a kick. He's dropped it forward, knock on.

 

[OB..]

So if the kicker drops it and completely misses the kick, with no pressure, knock-on or not OB?

The lack of input from an opponent makes the situation easily distinguishable.

However I don't see that much is likely to be gained from such an error, so I don't see a pressing need to regard it as a knock-on.

 

[OB..]

From the holy book:
Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground and kicked as it
rises from its first bounce.

If he doesn't kick it, it's obviously not a kick. He's dropped it forward, knock on.

You are simply ducking the fact that he has (in nearly all cases) dropped it forward to be able to make a successful kick.

 

[Dickie E]

However I don't see that much is likely to be gained from such an error, so I don't see a pressing need to regard it as a knock-on.

I don't see that much is to be gained from ANY knock-on

 

[Taff]

1) No
2) No

+1. Makes sense to me.

 

[OB..]

I don't see that much is to be gained from ANY knock-on

A knock-on is a disadvantage. My point is that releasing the ball forward (if formally allowed as an exception when attempting a kick) is not likely to turn an airshot into an advantage - you are more likely to just lose possession.

 

[The Fat]

A knock-on is a disadvantage. My point is that releasing the ball forward (if formally allowed as an exception when attempting a kick) is not likely to turn an airshot into an advantage - you are more likely to just lose possession.

An unintentional throw forward that misses its intended target, with or without pressure from an opposing player, is just a poorly executed skill which will result in advantage/scrum to opposition.
An airswing when attempting a kick, with or without pressure from an opposing player, is just a poorly executed skill which will result in advantage/scrum to opposition.