Edinburgh vs Ulster - red card

[Pedro]

Watching the edinburgh match tonight, white 13 takes the ball into the tackle slightly isolated and ruck forms,blue (7 I think) gets over the ball ( on his feet) and white 11 tries to saddle roll him away from the ruck but doesn't manage it. White 12 enters from the side and grabs blue 7s legs and tips him up over vertically so he effectively stands on his head- then let's him drop to the ground. Ref has a good Look at the replays and issues a red. Commentators mentioned a rule I can't find reference too with any relevance to the situation to the effect of " player can't lift his legs above his hips" - anyone have a law reference for that?

 

[OB..]

Watching the edinburgh match tonight, white 13 takes the ball into the tackle slightly isolated and ruck forms,blue (7 I think) gets over the ball ( on his feet) and white 11 tries to saddle roll him away from the ruck but doesn't manage it. White 12 enters from the side and grabs blue 7s legs and tips him up over vertically so he effectively stands on his head- then let's him drop to the ground. Ref has a good Look at the replays and issues a red. Commentators mentioned a rule I can't find reference too with any relevance to the situation to the effect of " player can't lift his legs above his hips" - anyone have a law reference for that?

They were probably thinking of the. tip tackle.

However from your description it sounds like dangerous play from a player who came into the ruck illegally (side entry) and collapsed the ruck in a manner reminiscent of the tip tackle.

 

[redhanded]

Incident can be seen here:

http://youtu.be/WlgAphBr4XQ?list=PL9mmlCY22idnPA6Sap1SQcx7ivr1w8hHj

About 1:21 into the video or 58 mins on the match clock.

 

[Phil E]

For me that would have been a YC for dangerous play. I don't see a RC there.
He stood him on his head, but at no point dropped him on his head.

 

[Browner]

Reminded me of BoD v Umaga & Mealamu, two players involved in lifting & 12 driving a rucking players head into the ground.

I don't think anyone can complain, if so on what grounds?

Clearly dangerous, clear RC for me.

 

[TheBFG]

these things are happening at a lot of breakdowns now and if they're not carful it could get a bit silly. we often see people being "cleared out" by being crutch lifted and a lot of these end up with the potential jackeler with their head below their hips. I'm not saying it's right, but around the breakdown is different than an open field tackle at speed :shrug:

 

[Phil E]

Reminded me of BoD v Umaga & Mealamu, two players involved in lifting & 12 driving a rucking players head into the ground.

I don't think anyone can complain, if so on what grounds?

Clearly dangerous, clear RC for me.

It's nothing like it. At no point is the lifted player "driven into the ground". He just does a head stand (done by thousands of kids in playgrounds, with or without help).

 

[menace]

Watching the edinburgh match tonight, white 13 takes the ball into the tackle slightly isolated and ruck forms,blue (7 I think) gets over the ball ( on his feet) and white 11 tries to saddle roll him away from the ruck but doesn't manage it. White 12 enters from the side and grabs blue 7s legs and tips him up over vertically so he effectively stands on his head- then let's him drop to the ground. Ref has a good Look at the replays and issues a red. Commentators mentioned a rule I can't find reference too with any relevance to the situation to the effect of " player can't lift his legs above his hips" - anyone have a law reference for that?

This is the law 10 reference..
[LAWS](j)
Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

[/LAWS]

The upgrade to YC/RC is a judgment thing, but I'd be using the tip tackle directive as a guideline!

 

[crossref]

This is the law 10 reference..
[LAWS](j)
Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

[/LAWS]

The upgrade to YC/RC is a judgment thing, but I'd be using the tip tackle directive as a guideline!

In this instance though I don't think the player was ever lifted from the ground, so the Law doesn't quite fit.
However, I agree with Phil E's first post - it was dangerous play and merited a YC.

 

[OB..]

It's nothing like it. At no point is the lifted player "driven into the ground". He just does a head stand (done by thousands of kids in playgrounds, with or without help).

I agree with the first part, but the fact that somebody else is holding on to his head worries me. It was clearly an involuntary headstand, because he was not in control, so I don't feel an analogy with gymnastics helps. I certainly do not want to see that technique for dealing with a jackler become the norm. I would expect to see a small ban follow.

 

[menace]

In this instance though I don't think the player was ever lifted from the ground, so the Law doesn't quite fit.
However, I agree with Phil E's first post - it was dangerous play and merited a YC.

Based on the link I didn't see a lift either.... I assumed it was a wrong link. But the op described a tip up vertical and that can only happen with a 'lift' of some sort.

 

[crossref]

Based on the link I didn't see a lift either.... I assumed it was a wrong link. But the op described a tip up vertical and that can only happen with a 'lift' of some sort.

well his legs were lifted up, but the player wasn't lifted from the ground. OR I didn't think so anyway, seems to me his head and arms are in contact with the ground the whole time.

I am not saying it wasn't dangerous though - I thought it was and YC.
It will be interesting to see what happens at the disciplinary.

 

[irishref]

I see neither lift nor drop. The Edinburgh player never left the ground - he was in the classic jackling position and his hands remained in contact with the ground for the duration of the "handstand".

I'd certainly give it Yellow for something that isn't at all rucking, but a Red Card is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Browner]

I'm surprised that posters are saying no lift, as neither his hips nor his legs got at 12°clock veritical to his head on their own, they were quite simply lifted up , I've looked at the body position of #7 at 57m:59.5s and #12's contributory actions, and it meets my definition of dangerous under 10.4 (j)

Expect a LE 4wk sanction, commuted to 2weeks , at the very least.

Anything less, is shockingly negligent Disciplinary work, IMHO. Save even the very strong pro-necks this risk, rid the game of the idea that this is acceptable for all those merely playing in grassroots!

 

[crossref]

i don't think anyone has said it's acceptable, browner, I think opinion is only divdied (so far) on whether it's a RC or a YC.

 

[Browner]

I see neither lift nor drop. The Edinburgh player never left the ground - he was in the classic jackling position and his hands remained in contact with the ground for the duration of the "handstand".

I'd certainly give it Yellow for something that isn't at all rucking, but a Red Card is beyond my comprehension.:nono:

I texted BoD, he said he's now sufferring flashbacks !

 

[Browner]

i don't think anyone has said it's acceptable, browner, I think opinion is only divdied (so far) on whether it's a RC or a YC.

Crossref, i never said anyone thinks it acceptable.

I specifically commented on the suggestion that there was 'no lift' (#13 Irish ref, #11 menace #9 Crossref all say its not ) PhilE goes one step further implying its a kiddy safe assisted headstand :wtf:

I agree with the referee,TMO, and the post match disciplinary guys WHEN they correctly punish the dangerousness. If I'm alone in this assessment ( for the good of all levels of rugby) then sobeit.

Next weekend, similar gets red from me , cardinal red if I can find such a card !!!!

 

[menace]

I specifically commented on the suggestion that there was 'no lift' (#13 Irish ref, #11 menace #9 Crossref all say its not ) PhilE goes one step further implying its a kiddy safe assisted headstand :wtf:

Just to be clear on my 'didn't see a lift'....what I meant was, based on the clip I could literally not see any lift because I couldn't see the incident!! Because nothing was clear I assumed I had the wrong clip... That's not to say there wasn't a lift. If someone got vertical as claimed (and I didn't see that either) then there had to be a lift involved.

 

[irishref]

10.4(j) states that the player must be lifted from the ground. He was in contact with the ground the whole time.

Sorry Browner - we've all said it was deserving of yellow but in my book it still doesn't qualify for red.

McClosky also does his best to put him down safely.

 

[crossref]

Just to be clear on my 'didn't see a lift'....what I meant was, based on the clip I could literally not see any lift because I couldn't see the incident!! Because nothing was clear I assumed I had the wrong clip... That's not to say there wasn't a lift. If someone got vertical as claimed (and I didn't see that either) then there had to be a lift involved.

he was on the ground to start with, and maintained contact with the ground the whole time. His legs were lifted (of course) until he was balanced on his head/hands, but he wasn't 'lifted from the ground', the phrase used in the Law.
which not to say that it wasn't dangerous!