England v France

timmad

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
208
Post Likes
55
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
France's first try. Was Dupont's tap forward different from tapping the ball over a defender to regather and score?
 
Last edited:

belladonna

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
264
Post Likes
48
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Wondered the exact same thing!
 

timmad

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
208
Post Likes
55
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
France's second try (am I coming across as a biased England fan?). Interesting to see Fikou's starting position at the line-out as the ball left the thrower's hand - 10 metres?
 
Last edited:

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,276
Post Likes
262
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
France's first try. Was Dupont's tap forward different from tapping the ball over a defender to regather and score?

For me it's not clear that he tapped it over a defender and therefore I'm happy to say he was legal.
If it's shown that he did in fact tap it over the defender and gain an advantage by doing so then I believe it would be illegal.
 

timmad

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
208
Post Likes
55
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
For me it's not clear that he tapped it over a defender and therefore I'm happy to say he was legal.
If it's shown that he did in fact tap it over the defender and gain an advantage by doing so then I believe it would be illegal.

Does that also beg the question: How far can you tap the ball forward and recover it?
I speak as someone who began playing in the days before the 'adjustment' was allowed.
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,212
Post Likes
333
When does it become a forward pass to yourself is another question? I’ve always judged it to be arms length and not over anybody. This was close on both accounts.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,276
Post Likes
262
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
When does it become a forward pass to yourself is another question? I’ve always judged it to be arms length and not over anybody. This was close on both accounts.

I don't think judging it based on distance is appropriate.
I think the context is more relevant.
 

Zebra1922


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
698
Post Likes
210
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I’d like to take this in another direction. Last 2 minutes, England receive a penalty for France holding on. After a couple of replays the referee changes the penalty to France for England off feet.

Now I think it was probably the right decision as the England player was on his forearms before he got on the ball, however is the referee allowed to change a decision in this way?
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,276
Post Likes
262
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I’d like to take this in another direction. Last 2 minutes, England receive a penalty for France holding on. After a couple of replays the referee changes the penalty to France for England off feet.

Now I think it was probably the right decision as the England player was on his forearms before he got on the ball, however is the referee allowed to change a decision in this way?

Rather than asking " is the referee allowed to change a decision in this way" try asking 'why not'!
The referee is acknowledged as being the sole judge of fact! Surely that is enough!
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,352
Solutions
1
Post Likes
336
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I’d like to take this in another direction. Last 2 minutes, England receive a penalty for France holding on. After a couple of replays the referee changes the penalty to France for England off feet.

Now I think it was probably the right decision as the England player was on his forearms before he got on the ball, however is the referee allowed to change a decision in this way?

Equity trumps process? The referee has to be allowed to change his mind (because to do otherwise would be perverse, regardless of a tight interpretation of 6.14). However it should be his decision, other than issues within the remit of ARs, TJs or TMO (6.13-6.15).
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,613
Post Likes
282
I think the thing is you may juggle the ball while completing a catch.
But once you have the ball under control you may not then throw it forward - even if you catch it again.
Timing is therefore the critical difference.
 

belladonna

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
264
Post Likes
48
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Did anyone spot the blade of grass the ball must have touched in the Maroe Itoje try? I was being distracted at the time so might have missed a replay, but I gather from the commentator there were millimetres in it.
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,212
Post Likes
333
Did anyone spot the blade of grass the ball must have touched in the Maroe Itoje try? I was being distracted at the time so might have missed a replay, but I gather from the commentator there were millimetres in it.

All I know is that if there had been the same groundsman at the Italy/Wales game Wales would have had another try!:)
 

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
496
Post Likes
54
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Can I just prelude this by saying I thought the officials had a really great game. Well refereed and TMO was correct ( and brave, given the question she got asked ) to give Itoje's try. They let the game flow and it resulted in a great competitive game of rugby to watch.

However, just wonderinf if anyone else spotted this one : Final seconds of the game. France ruck, Dupont half picks up the ball, but drops it backwards towards his own feet. Ref sees that as a knock-on (incorrect in my benefit of hindsight view ). He's lost possession of the ball but it has not gone forward. Doesnt really affect the follow-on play as Egnladn steal the ball and kick it out to end the game. Yes- this is nit-picking to the nth degree. :)
 

timmad

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
208
Post Likes
55
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
France's second try (am I coming across as a biased England fan?). Interesting to see Fikou's starting position at the line-out as the ball left the thrower's hand - 10 metres?

To answer my own question: I looked back through the footage and estimate that Fickou, anticipating the play, was not more than 8 metres from the line of touch as the ball was thrown.
A further question: when does the line-out end allowing players not in the line - and starting 10 metres back - to participate?
When the ball has passed the 15 metre line? In which case, Fickou was, say, 3 metres back.

Hard to referee this I know.
 

KoolFork

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
90
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
This is specifically allowed
 

KoolFork

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
90
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
If Fickou was on 8m, so are the rest of the French back line. Looks about 10m to me. England look to be slightly further back than 10m!

I never had the luxury of 5m mowed grass strips, so I preferred to stand where I could see both back lines and the lineout.
 

timmad

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
208
Post Likes
55
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
This is specifically allowed
Thank you, I checked the LoTG
18.36 Once the ball has been thrown in by a team-mate, players who are not participating in the lineout may move forward. If that occurs, then their opponents may also move forward. If the ball does not go beyond the 15-metre line, the players will not be liable to sanction if they immediately retire to their respective offside lines.
 
Top