English U13s Touring Wales

[kaypeegee]

Taking an U13 squad to Wales in a few weeks and would welcome some advice / clarification from WRU colleagues on the following:

1) I can only find the WRU Rugby Pathway for Season 2008-2009 on the WRU site. Is this the latest version? Are there any changes to the rules for this season?

2) As I understand it main differences at U13 are
(a) passive scrums (vs. normal U19 scrums in RFU-land)
(b) No no.8 pickup (vs. allowed)
(c) SH can follow around scrum per normal scrum law (vs. only as far as mid-line)

3) Can someone clarify the following. "Penalties/free kicks the ball must be propelled from the hands". Does this mean that you don't have the option to place the ball on the floor at the mark and then tap-it when taking a FK/PK?

Any other advice gratefully appreciated.

 

[scrumpox2]

I'm taking U14s to Wales this year so have been checking ... important you agree these with coaches of teams that you're playing.

1. the 2008-9 Pathway seems to be the one still in use and is provided on the WRU website
2. looks right ... scragging is penalised in Wales, not specifically against RFU U19 variations, only in the Continuum. You might also want to check what happens if a forward is carded - equal numbers in scrum as in England even though they're passive?
3. this is a clarification only, to prevent penalty taker simply tapping the ball on his foot, rather than the ball actually leaving the hands briefly. It does not prevent the tap forward with ball on floor.
Watched in horror as a Hampshire A player did this against Middlesex A on Sunday; ref pinged him and awarded scrum to opposition with a lecture!!

 

[Dixie]

Input from Welsh refs invaluable, but I beleive that the opposition hooker can strike within the passive scrum?

Have you checked the insurance position when playing in Wales?

 

[scrumpox2]

Insurance is not an issue, don't even need RFU permission (HRFU in my case) when touring within the UK.

kpg - just out of interest where, when and who? How did you select the club(s) to play? Any other activities planned?
We're staying in Porthcawl, 10-16 April, and playing Pencoed, Kenfig Hill and Pentyrch. Selection was by many hours of firing off emails, relative playing standards are hard to assess and the information on club websites is on the whole bloody awful.

Next year we want to tour Scotland - I've got no leads at all, so it'll be the same process

 

[Dickie E]

make sure the 12 year olds keep away from "square sheep" ... Can be very embarrassing

 

[scrumpox2]

I wouldn't expect many golden harvest scenes in mid-April, Dickie

 

[kaypeegee]

kpg - just out of interest where, when and who? How did you select the club(s) to play? Any other activities planned?
We're staying in Porthcawl, 10-16 April, and playing Pencoed, Kenfig Hill and Pentyrch. Selection was by many hours of firing off emails, relative playing standards are hard to assess and the information on club websites is on the whole bloody awful.

Bridgend this weekend! We have a fairly long term relationship with the "Ath"; we tour there and they visit us in Surrey(!) on alternate years. Talk about culture shock!
This will be my third trip. This year we are taking U16s, U14s and U13s. All have BARFC games on the Sunday. On Sat U14 play Aberavon Quins, U13 play Pencoed with U16s training and beach rugby at Porthcawl (not to be missed!). All off to Newport Gwent Dragons versus Ospreys game in Newport on Sat night. Swimming sessions at the hotel pool etc etc.

PM me if you want more details.

ps We do have tour insurance through RFU/Marsh
pps If I could I would add a picture of a duck as weather doesn't look great for the weekend - but as BARFC spent the whole of last years tour to us in our bar with 6" of snow on the ground I think we can count ourselves lucky.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I wouldn't expect many golden harvest scenes in mid-April, Dickie

Count your blessings - most of Dickie's pictures filed under Golden are VERY different!

 

[Dickie E]

t'was only the other day I found out what an "Angry Dragon" is

 

[Taff]

Bridgend this weekend! ... Talk about culture shock!

Oh I don't know. I always found Surrey quite smart. :wink:

 

[GeorgeR]

When I toured last year with U15 there was a RFU guidance re ELV's and lifting giving dispensation to English coaches to coach the boys to lift and pull down mauls. I would expect that the guidance on lifting still applies, though obviously puling down mauls has been discontinued.

See below
ELV Clarification – U19 Cross Border Fixtures
Scenario 1 – An English club or school U19 (or below) XV playing a Welsh/Scottish
U19 (or below) XV in England
a) If the match is being played under the jurisdiction of the RFU, then ELVs
2 and 3 will not be played
b) If a match is being played as part of an RFU sanctioned competition, under
the jurisdiction of another Union (e.g. a cross border competition
comprising home and away fixtures), then ELVs 2 and 3 can be played in
England
c) ELVs 2 and 3 must not be played in “friendly” matches played in England
involving U19 teams
d) In scenarios a) and b) above, referees and coaches of the English teams
will be covered by the RFU insurance
e) Coaches will also be covered during training sessions, during which the
“pulling down” of the maul is being coached
Scenario 2 – An English club or school U19 (or below) XV playing a “foreign” U19
(or below) XV outside England
The English U19 XV has three potential options:
a) To negotiate to play under the RFU variations i.e. without ELVs 2 and 3
b) To play under iRB Laws, which include ELVs 2 and 3
c) Not to play
If the team elects scenario b), then its coaches have a responsibility to ensure that the
players are adequately prepared. If they are not content that they are, then they should
NOT play.
Coaches and referees involved in either scenario a) or b) are covered by the RFU’s
insurance. Cover extends to training sessions, during which the “pulling down” of the
maul is being coached

 

[kaypeegee]

Oh I don't know. I always found Surrey quite smart. :wink:

:wink:

Great tour. Thanks for advice on here and various PMs.

Wonderful hospitality from hosts Bridgend Athletic (and thanks to Pencoed for giving us a Saturday game)

Watched the Dragons Ospreys game on Saturday - one of the best I have seen in a long time.

Gareth Williams & Andy Powell turned up for the end of tour presentations.

As for the rule differences. Our forwards a bit frustrated they couldn't push in the scrum; and our scrum half was on very steep learning-curve as oppo could follow around (magically get into "pocket" without being offside:chin and scrag him.

Tough weekend of rugby but a good learning experience for all involved.

Thoroughly recommended

 

[Taff]

... Wonderful hospitality from hosts Bridgend Athletic .... Gareth Wiliams & Andy Powell turned up for the end of tour presentations.

Nice gesture. :clap: Please don't tell me Andy Powell turned up in a golf buggy.

... As for the rule differences. Our forwards a bit frustrated they couldn't push in the scrum ...

Why couldn't they push in the scrum? :chin:

 

[kaypeegee]

Why couldn't they push in the scrum? :chin:

We played to WRU Pathway U13 variations. Passive scrums. No pushing, but both hookers can strike. (see post #1)

fyi In RFU-land forwards have been contesting scrums since U10s [U10s 3-man, U11s 5-man, U12s 6-man (@ club) or 8-man (@school) & U13s+ 8-man]

Apparently they start pushing at U14 in Wales.

 

[Account Deleted]

Input from Welsh refs invaluable, but I beleive that the opposition hooker can strike within the passive scrum?

Have you checked the insurance position when playing in Wales?

Yes we have 3 levels of scrums.

Uncontested No pushing, Side putting in wins. (under 10)
Passive No Pushing but BOTH HOOKERS allowed to hook. (U11 -U13)
Contested Pushing (1.5mtr) both hookers allowed to hook. (U14 +)

Note that the props can't hook. It is specific that; "both hookers can hook", although many sides do have their entire FR hooking as "required".

U14 + it is standard IRB U19 variations.

 

[scrumpox2]

Well, we had a brilliant time in Wales, superb weather, grounds were consequently a bit hard but we had 3 full on, really competitive fixtures. If anyone here is here from these clubs or knows of them, their hospitality was excellent - Pencoed, Kenfig Hill, Pentyrch all take a bow.

Having agreed the WRU Pathway variations ahead of time we had no issues with the laws. (We played Pathway except no line out lifting.) Not surprisingly we had a dominant scrum in all three games.

I have to say I was hugely surprised to learn how many junior sections of Welsh clubs are struggling with playing numbers and that poaching players is a hot issue. Obviously the sheer number and density of the clubs in the Ospreylia and Cardiff Blues regions is a factor.