France v Italy - potential spoiler

[didds]

4:36 water carrier on. Ref should have dismissed him.
5:03 Garbisi is addressing the ball . water carrier and a.n. other are strolling around into Garbisi's field of view. Nothing worth addressing there?
5:08 water carrier still moving now directly between Garbisi and the goal.
5:09 ball falls over. Immediately a Fra player runs towards the ball - its not a walk, not a step - its a run. That cannot be done. Runner stops - not sure why from that video - maybe told to stop?
5:16 water carrier now standing in line between ball and posts. why is he still on the pitch anyway?
5:19 ball is reset. garbisi is preparing/addressing the ball again. Different French player now runs forward. water carrier STILL on the pitch.

so when should ref have first intervened?
4:36 with the water carrier.


After that you guys are the refs not me - but Im amazed that nothing in any of the other random time frames I selected above warrants a "hold on. WTF is going on here?" moment. Except that after the Fra v Sco non-try thing refs are now sh1t scared to do anything remotely viewable as controversial.

5:29 - kick has bounced off the post and play is live - water carrier is STILL basically just standing around in the middle of the pitch.
5:26 weather carrier started to walk off. stopped. turned around and is STILL standing on the pitch 15m from touch.

I cant comment on whether any France players are < 10m from the ball - if its not 10m its pretty close to it... except for when they run at the ball during the act of taking a penalty.

 

[crossref]

4:36 water carrier on. Ref should have dismissed him.

Stop the clock at all ?
And if stopped Restart the shot clock at same place or reset to zero ?

(And same qs at later points)

 

[BikingBud]

Not sure it's always that simple

Going back to the OP scenario.. at what point exactly should Christoph have first intervened, do you think ? (You could give the time reference on the Every video above) ..and what should he have done at that point

You've got me there @crossref and now I'm really struggling, I'm not sure it can be any simpler.

I cannot apply the Laws outwith my understanding nor can I apply Laws for things I haven't seen. And I do accept fallibility that there are Laws that I do not fully understand and there are events that I do not see but I can learn and get a better understanding of the Laws as prompted by discussions on here and I can work to improve my positioning and observation. But even after that I remain fallible as there will likely still be Laws that are seldom used and I cannot see everything on the pitch.

Anyway, I think the different angle from this video is really good. And with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, at:

• 4:19 - Player indicates shot. Medic already entering FOP at far RHS not an issue at this point.
• 4:22 - Ref indicates shot
• 4:29 - Medic at near side enters FOP, tee carrier coming on.
• 4:40 kicking tee placed, one AR on goal line, one AR discussing with French player but both ARs not yet in position. Has the shot clock started yet? Would need to check on other coverage with shot clock showing. Match officials are not ready why should the kicker have this on his time?
• 4:51 medic from far side has retired and medic from nearside has gone across to player knelt just outside 22. I now start getting suspicious and consider if I should intervene.
• 4:53 Kicker has placed ball and started stepping back to commence his kick "ritual"
• 5:00 Kicker steps forward to address ball and then steps back again. Medic is now drifting back towards nearside into kickers sightline and I would step in here, eject the medics, direct all French players to remain still and reset the situation to the kickers benefit at the current mark.
• 5:09 Nearside medic stops bang on kickers sightline, ball has fallen off the tee and the French players start charging. If I hadn't already stepped in above I would definitely blow, and now apply the Sanction, instruct the opposition to stand still, eject the medics and advance the mark 10m.
• 5:20 - even after replacing the ball, the medic is still on sightline and the French players are still moving. So there's a period of 40 s that the referee had the option to see, assimilate and intervene. He did it at the end fate 1 st half so why not at the end of the game.
• 5:26 the referee has run past the medic still on the 22 watching the game

Could or should Garbisi have picked and slotted the drop goal rather than resetting the ball, or commented earlier in his preparations that France were not complying? Not sure, high pressure end of close match, kicker with few caps, likely unsure of the Laws himself.

See @didds and seems closely aligned, not copying teach honest.

 

[crossref]

kinda interesting though - didds and you both had a go at applying the laws.

didds blows his whistle at 4:36 and gets the medics off the pitch

you don't get suspicious until 4:52 -.. and blow your whistle at 5:00

I am not saying who is right or wrong.. both approaches probably fine .

I also think CR should have intervened before the ball even fell off. And definitely after - indeed I think I am pretty much aligned with you on this scenario.

 

[BikingBud]

My initial thought was water carrier as I mentioned at posts #11 and #26 but I feel these are medics, different coloured bibs. But the fact remains they are there to treat injured players, which on closer review doesn't appear to happening, and not to interfere with play, which is occurring on the near side on the 22m.

So my initial perspective is that the medic on the far side is not interfering leave him be, but when the medic from this side traverses the pitch 4:51 and then ambles back 5:00 I am concerned as in the intervening time the kicker is trying to complete their routine and this is where it becomes prejudicial to the fair execution of the penalty. So I intervene.

If the near side medic had continued to clear the playing area at the far side of the pitch I would probably have let it go but as soon as he turns around then that is unnecessary behaviour, if he'd run across to clear the pitch on the near side I might have a little more empathy, he was a big lad, and I might have requested shot clock to stop. He doesn't! He has a nice stroll right in the kickers sightline.

I do wonder if the Championship can sanction the medics: Additional Persons:

Law 6 - Global Law Trial
28 - Appropriately trained and accredited first-aid or immediate (pitch-side) care persons may enter the playing area to attend to injured players at any time it is safe to do so.

a. There may be up to two medics, one on either side of the pitch, who may follow play.​

b. These medics can only carry and provide water to a player that they are treating.​

c. Medics cannot field, or touch a ball while it is in live play.​

Sanction: Penalty where play would restart.

They did not appear to be treating players, if they were and the treatment was in a position that was interfering with play. Stop the shot clock. Remove accreditation perhaps?

 

[didds]

Stop the clock at all ?
And if stopped Restart the shot clock at same place or reset to zero ?

(And same qs at later points)

yeah. why not. its not the kickers fault the ref has had to stop the game.
Reset everything at time on after the water carrier has ambled off to the technical area/chargers have retired to 10m etc etc

If in the interim the kicker has placed the ball, stepped back, and done half his standard routine...


... maybe the water carrier/chargers wont make that silly mistake again...

Ill wager they wont repeat it in a hurry...

 

[crossref]

there is lacuna in the Law as well. If you stop the shot clock then when you restart
- should it resume where you stopped it (tough if it was say 4s to go)
- should it resume at 90s ? seems a bit generous
something else?

 

[didds]

kinda interesting though - didds and you both had a go at applying the laws.

didds blows his whistle at 4:36 and gets the medics off the pitch

Id add that any other random time points I mention after that would also incur a stoppage and reset etc etc after the outcome was sorted if previous points hadn't been a reason for stopping etc

And any double/treble/etc up would probably see a card 9albeit on 80:00 the card is match irrelevant but not necessarily tribunal irrelevant depending on colour)

 

[didds]

there is lacuna in the Law as well. If you stop the shot clock then when you restart
- should it resume where you stopped it (tough if it was say 4s to go)
- should it resume at 90s ? seems a bit generous
something else?

90 sec.

otherwise if the transgression 9speaking more generally here) occurred with 4 seconds to go just as the kicker's foot is about to make contact, does the reset leave the kick with 4 seconds?

90 seconds. the transgressors may learn that way.
tough sh1t.

 

[didds]

My initial thought was water carrier as I mentioned at posts #11 and #26 but I feel these are medics, different coloured bibs. But the fact remains they are there to treat injured players, which on closer review doesn't appear to happening, and not to interfere with play, which is occurring on the near side on the 22m.

fair enough they are medics - mea culpa.

they don't seem to be doing much mediccing. And if they aren't meddicing what TF is he doing at
5:16 water carrier [SIC] now standing still in line between ball and posts.

 

[Dickie E]

there is lacuna in the Law as well. If you stop the shot clock then when you restart
- should it resume where you stopped it (tough if it was say 4s to go)
- should it resume at 90s ? seems a bit generous
something else?

back in my HSBC 7s time keeping days, when the on-TV sin bin count down clock was introduced, it was either 10 mins or nothing ie we didn't have the ability to reset it to 6 minutes, for example.

I wonder if the shot clock administrator is similarly constrained.

 

[didds]

back in my HSBC 7s time keeping days, when the on-TV sin bin count down clock was introduced, it was either 10 mins or nothing ie we didn't have the ability to reset it to 6 minutes, for example.

I wonder if the shot clock administrator is similarly constrained.

given its a stop/start/reset of a f*ckling stopwatch Id bloody hope not. Mind you - this is WR and NGBs we are talking about here...