Gloucester v Bath

[Dave Sherwin]

Poor old Greg Garner had a torrid time with the scrum in the West Country derby with no completed scrum for at least the first 60 mins (I've still got 20 to watch). It was interesting that when BT Sport spoke to Yann Thomas, he was talking about "getting a good hit". I also thought it was pretty obvious that Both teams were looking to chase the engagement. Have all the good intentions (and improved reset stats) of last season started to be abandoned? If so, it'll be a real shame.

 

[TheBFG]

Spent Sunday eve with a Champ/Prem AR and he was saying that refs are trying to keep their % of scrum failures to a min (obviously), but it's not something I've even thought about? He AR'd a Champ game earlier in the month where the ref had 0% completed :wow:

I do think that refs need to improve on their scrum reffin?

YC's is one route, but I think they need to grow a pair and potentially go un-contested, that might sort the issue :shrug:

 

[Browner]

Spent Sunday eve with a Champ/Prem AR and he was saying that refs are trying to keep their % of scrum failures to a min (obviously), but it's not something I've even thought about? He AR'd a Champ game earlier in the month where the ref had 0% completed :wow:

I do think that refs need to improve on their scrum reffin?

In the community game , I don't witness a problem, wherever I watch L5-L10

So do scrummagers simply get progressively worse ( better coached at law bending?)
or ....
do referees get progressively less willing to deal with things,

and if the latter then why are they?

 

[andyscott]

Refs need to go

PK, PK, Y Card, Y Card, RC from the off, not try and manage it.

Who comes up with this management nonesense, its not the players or the Elite clubs. The elite part of the game doesnt need a ref trying to do everything to manage (read not be stern enough) a situation.

We have to stop blaming referees for the scrum, the blame lies with the players, end of.

 

[ChrisR]

Refs need to go

PK, PK, Y Card, Y Card, RC from the off, not try and manage it.

Who comes up with this management nonesense, its not the players or the Elite clubs. The elite part of the game doesnt need a ref trying to do everything to manage (read not be stern enough) a situation.

We have to stop blaming referees for the scrum, the blame lies with the players, end of.

The problem is discerning the perpetrator. If you get the villain right then your prescription may work. But you won't always get it right and it will encourage players to sell bad calls.

If instead you went reset, reset, reset until a successful end then the onus is back on the players. Yes, you'd get howls from the crowd and the TV producers but the pressure would then be on the clubs to fix it.

 

[andyscott]

You would not get another game at that level if you did that

 

[winchesterref]

I would love to see that! And every early drive, crooked feed, illegal bind just whistled. It would soon stop.

 

[winchesterref]

I believe there is a currently a "tell" players to stop acting in a particular way, and now ping without further warning if they continue even if immaterial.

 

[ChrisR]

I believe there is a currently a "tell" players to stop acting in a particular way, and now ping without further warning if they continue even if immaterial.

Not sure I get what you're saying.

 

[Daftmedic]

Let me interject. (If my spelling is wrong im sure umpire will be happy to make a thread of it). It is highly suggested by our coaches that we "manage" a situation.
Example:
7 watch your binding in the scrum, it looks to me that you're coming away early". Inevitably there response is, "who me sir"?
next time it's:
"7 STAY BOUND"

further on:
peeeeeep. "7 I've told you before stay bound".

Next:
PEEEEP..... peep peep time off,"Skipper please."

[insert name] "I've told your 7 to many times now to bind properly. You manage him or you may loose him for ten minutes"

etc etc

 

[ChrisR]

OK, I see what you're saying. That's an easy management if the 6/7 unbind, keep a hand grip on their scrum and you deem it "immaterial".

The issue I have is when the front row go down and it's a total crapshoot as to cause but instead of a re-set there's a PK.

 

[Daftmedic]

Re-Set ask them for stability (that's their warning) pay closer attention to feet and elbows. Then ping them.

 

[Pegleg]

We have to stop blaming referees for the scrum, the blame lies with the players, end of.

The ref still has to ref them properly. If he does not, he must share part of the blame. I'm sat watching a shocking display or scrummaging and or reffing the scrum now. The ref is having a shocker as are the players. Some calls that defy physics!

 

[andyscott]

The ref still has to ref them properly. If he does not, he must share part of the blame. I'm sat watching a shocking display or scrummaging and or reffing the scrum now. The ref is having a shocker as are the players. Some calls that defy physics!

Indeed, but what do you define properly?

If both props don't want to stay up who does the ref penalise?

Its the players who must take responsibility.

 

[Pegleg]

How do I define properly? Hmmmm let me think.

Get the obvious calls right! Would be a start. When a prop binds with a C&O downward bind please don't be surprised when the scrum goes down. Penalise on the evidence not on assumptions. I've watch a fairly senior, certainly on the way up, ref today get almost every scrum wrong. True a few were called, or not, by his "helpful" AR.

It's not helpful when the "He knows. He knows" defence is used to "explain" calls. Spreaders could get away with it. This guy could not.

 

[matty1194]

It's not helpful when the "He knows. He knows" defence is used to "explain" calls. Spreaders could get away with it. This guy could not.

I to watched a game today on TV and the referee had a decent game, he was not helped by the players in the front row, and he gave them more than enough chances to adjust there settings but they chose not to. He used just that phrase you mention, he was speaking to a player with roughly 250 senior leagues games under his belt in a 14 year career, 95 Wales caps and 5 caps for the Lions,

Im pretty sure that player knew exactly what he was doing to force a penalty against his opposite number and the referee caught him and used that phrase.

He did however back up his initial call of "he knows" with a follow up to the captain when it was appropriate to try and keep the game flowing.

Good effort that man.

 

[Pegleg]

For The first half Adam was not on the park. The ref ignore the NGD loose head pulling down as soon as he bound. when the Cardiff TH then bound illegally on the arm he was pingged. Both LHP's were continually driving in and getting away with it. The ref should have dealt with the repeated infringing by going to his pocket. He did not do so thus failing in his job to police the game. As I said the front rows and the ref have a role to play in keeping the scrums honest. ALL failed.


Rgarding the PK against Adam "looking for the PK". As Brian Moore has said, it is highly unlikely that the PK would have been conceeded. Not impossible but highly unlikely. Considering his record of scrum calls in the game it is highly unlikely that he go that one right. However, I can't ay for certain as there was no angle of that side of the scum on TV. The same with the last Scrum PK. I doubt that the NGDs collapsed that one give the field position etc possession was all they wanted. Howerver, there was not a TV angle to see if he got that one right. As I say over the game the scrum calls that you could see were interesting to say the least. Sadly The ref is known as poor in the scrum area and I think both scrums played him like a Kipper.

Whe you too watched the ref give the front rows enough chances to change their settings. did you notice his failure to act when they did not change? Making threats is pointless unless you follow up!

He tried to keep the game flowing. With that call with 10 mins (approx) to go? He could have done that by going to his pocked about 60 mins earlier.

 

[Adam]

Oi! I wasn't on the park at any point!!!

 

[Pegleg]

What is very clear is that players will continue to cheat and so we must police it. We need to understand the scrum better. There are few "dark arts" just simple cheating. Things happen for a reason and physics applies. Talk to front rows / coaches etc but also watch, think and learn.

 

[Browner]

Let me interject. (If my spelling is wrong im sure umpire will be happy to make a thread of it). It is highly suggested by our coaches that we "manage" a situation.
Example:
7 watch your binding in the scrum, it looks to me that you're coming away early". Inevitably there response is, "who me sir"?
next time it's:
"7 STAY BOUND"

further on:
peeeeeep. "7 I've told you before stay bound".

Next:
PEEEEP..... peep peep time off,"Skipper please."

[insert name] "I've told your 7 to many times now to bind properly. You manage him or you may loose him for ten minutes"

etc etc

As long as "manage" doesn't become 'abdicate'

Ie.
Followed by : 6 you also watch your binding in the .......
Then ... 8 can you watch your ....
Then .... LHP, please move your bind off the arm ......
Oh no.... Not you now THP. Please bind correctly ......

Each with individual chats ,
Zzzzzzzzzzzz, tick tock

I Nope not.
Tell both captains you expect all forwards to bind legally , they all know what they are doing & why, so, just grow a pair & deal with miscreants and cut all this ' player coaching' crap out.

I don't see that all this referee perma chat at scrum time is working, ....... go on then someone, try convincing me it is .