[Ruck] Hands past off side line

[Dave Elliott]

I penalised this a few weeks back, but can't find in laws. Ruck or scrum near goal line, so line offside for defence. Feet behind line but players in sprinter position with hands on ground past line. I called off side, was I correct?

 

[TheBFG]

I believe it was "brought in" last year to give that separation at the back foot by the TV boys, but as you say not sure it's in law? Good management though :wink:

 

[didds]

TBH It wouldn;t surprise me at all that this "allowed".

even though it brings the shoulders and thus arms - ie the stopping part of a tackle, a metre or so closer to the attackers than the offside line.

whatever.

didds

 

[Pinky]

There was guidance to refs that hands on the floor should be behind the o/s line. Indeed hands shouldn't really be on the floor anyway, but may be allowed as long as there is no significant weight on them.

 

[DocY]

I penalised this a few weeks back, but can't find in laws. Ruck or scrum near goal line, so line offside for defence. Feet behind line but players in sprinter position with hands on ground past line. I called off side, was I correct?

Yes, you were correct. As others have said, there was a fairly recent ruling/clarification on it (that, typically, I can't find now).

But when you penalise them for it, do explain why. IME players still try to get away with it.

 

[The Fat]

I know it was passed on to unions from WR but, like others, cannot find the directive/guidance document at the moment.
It was definitely emphasised to community level referees in Australia prior to the start of 2016 season here (timing may give others a clue if looking for any memo etc), and appears in our GMGs as follows,

RUCK
Offside (pillars) • Pillars must not have hands on ground ahead of the offside line .
• Pillars may be managed back onside on occasions, but referees should not be continually verbally managing them. Players in teams that continue to stand offside should be penalised.

 

[didds]

except of course players are not STANDING offside. Their FEET on which they STAND are onside. Its their HANDS that are offside. They certainly are not STANDING - they are at best on all fours.

Better wording could have been used there really

Pedantic Didds

 

[Balones]

You might like to read this.

http://www.rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/70616-law-discussion-hands-down

And this.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/archive/index.php/t-19461.html

and this

http://www.rugbyontario.com/Portals...16/160413-RO_GameManagementGuidelines2016.pdf

 

[Phil E]

You might like to read this.

http://www.rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/70616-law-discussion-hands-down

This referred to

"But now there are experiments that pertain to how rugby is played in England's Premiership. One of those is the introduction of the breakdown - a new idea and defined. Law 16 - Breakdown"

What are they on about, I haven't heard anything about this experiment???????

 

[beckett50]

It came in over the closed season (at least closed for those of us in the NH). It was a directive from WR and IIRC it was included in the list of stuff that was new for this year )

 

[Phil E]

It came in over the closed season (at least closed for those of us in the NH). It was a directive from WR and IIRC it was included in the list of stuff that was new for this year )

But its not included in the trials we are implementing (in the NH) next season?
Was it one of the ones that didn't make the cut?

 

[Dave Elliott]

Thanks for the answers Guys. When you say new directives and things, where do you locate these, as I look on WR site but only a few such as new sanctions on high tackle?

 

[beckett50]

But its not included in the trials we are implementing

It is not a trial Phil, but was part of the clarification document that WR/RFU issued over the summer. I will try and dig it out and post it here - assuming I can find it. I know I printed it out pre-season, as an aide memoire but...

 

[The Fat]

It is not a trial Phil, but was part of the clarification document that WR/RFU issued over the summer. I will try and dig it out and post it here - assuming I can find it. I know I printed it out pre-season, as an aide memoire but...

I think you guys are talking about the stuff they trialled in the Mitre 10 Cup in NZ last season

 

[Balones]

This referred to

"But now there are experiments that pertain to how rugby is played in England's Premiership. One of those is the introduction of the breakdown - a new idea and defined. Law 16 - Breakdown"

What are they on about, I haven't heard anything about this experiment???????

Totally understand where you are coming from Phil. I can remember having a few discussions about the proposals pre-season but can't remember seeing anything official from the RFU. (And quite often I'm on the secret list!:wink

 

[Balones]

I think you guys are talking about the stuff they trialled in the Mitre 10 Cup in NZ last season

I think that is the start of the confusion and the basis of the discussions I was having pre-season. I knew what was being proposed and expected something to come from the RFU but nothing appeared.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2016/08/52...on-the-new-law-trials-in-place-in-new-zealand

LAW 16: THE BREAKDOWN (PREVIOUSLY RUCK)

1. A breakdown is formed when an attacking player is over the ball on their feet.
2. At this point an offside line is in place.
3. The breakdown offside line for defenders is the hindmost foot.
4. Players joining the breakdown must do so from behind the offside line and join behind the midpoint of the breakdown.
5. Players joining the breakdown must bind onto any player, using their whole arm.
6. Players must be on their feet for the duration of the breakdown.
7. A player may be in the halfback position and remain behind the hindmost foot offside line.
8. A player in the halfback position may lift the ball from the breakdown.
9. Once the ball emerges from the breakdown it has ended.

After consideration and review by World Rugby, it remains a possibility that they would consider a global trial of some or all of these laws in 2017, and potential adoption in 2018.

 

[Phil E]

After consideration and review by World Rugby, it remains a possibility that they would consider a global trial of some or all of these laws in 2017, and potential adoption in 2018.

So why did Rugby365 say this is now an experimental law in the English Premiership and the Saracens Ref was correct as a result?
It isn't, Fake News has reached Rugby!

 

[Balones]

Hi Phil,
Perhaps the dates at which the various links were written may provide some light on the matter. One rumour believing anther? I'm just as puzzled as you. I just posted the links for info purposes as possible reason behind what is being believed.
I do know from my observations that refs have been refusing to allow players to get into the starting blocks much more this season even if there hasn't been some sort of official world wide directive/guidance. Something I support. However I do find refs are very inconsistent with this when the ball is very near the try line.

 

[Phil E]

Hi Phil,
Perhaps the dates at which the various links were written may provide some light on the matter. One rumour believing anther? I'm just as puzzled as you. I just posted the links for info purposes as possible reason behind what is being believed.
I do know from my observations that refs have been refusing to allow players to get into the starting blocks much more this season even if there hasn't been some sort of official world wide directive/guidance. Something I support. However I do find refs are very inconsistent with this when the ball is very near the try line.

I have seen it penalised more by Champions Cup referees, than by Premiership referees at Tigers. i.e. the non RFU referees.

 

[Pinky]

I think we are talking about two separate things here.

1 there was a proposal to consider trialing the revised law 16, the breakdown, which effectively was going to create an offside line at a tackle too, but this IIRC was put on a back burner somewhere.

2 there was a clarification that behind the offside line included hands where players were adopting the "starting block" position