[Ruck] Hands past off side line

[Taff]

The Ref pulled up the Scarlets on it in tonights match against Leicester.

He could be quite clearly shouting "Hands up Reds".

 

[chbg]

Bump … as a result of a Society question, the 'directive' was included in WR Update to Referees, distributed by RFU in Sep 2015:

 

[crossref]

Bump … as a result of a Society question, the 'directive' was included in WR Update to Referees, distributed by RFU in Sep 2015:
View attachment 3865

but this is completely out of date now, as the offside line is no longer the hindmost foot of the stanidng, bound-in team mate

The offside line is now any old bit of any old player...

[LAWS]Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any ruck participant. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line.[/LAWS]

 

[Decorily]

Caution..
I haven't read this entire thread...

But, an offside line is still an offside line and hands on the ground ahead of this line still put the player offside!

 

[chbg]

but this is completely out of date now, as the offside line is no longer the hindmost foot of the stanidng, bound-in team mate

The offside line is now any old bit of any old player...

[LAWS]Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any ruck participant. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line.[/LAWS]

So you think that every aspect of that presentation is out of date? FFS the thread did not identify where the 'directive' came that no hands were allowed on the ground ahead the offside line. Whilst it never became specifically incorporated in Law (did it really have to be?) this is where it was provided from WR. In September 2015. As stated. It closes off the thread if someone else searches for it, and provides re-assurance for those who want it. You are free to ignore it if you wish.

 

[ChuckieB]

It's not any old bit of any old player as the laws still define a ruck participant as being on their feet so from a law standpoint the hindmost point should be a foot. Nothing contradictory in the laws that I can see even if it doesn't pan out like that in practice.

 

[crossref]

So you think that every aspect of that presentation is out of date? FFS the thread did not identify where the 'directive' came that no hands were allowed on the ground ahead the offside line. Whilst it never became specifically incorporated in Law (did it really have to be?) this is where it was provided from WR. In September 2015. As stated. It closes off the thread if someone else searches for it, and provides re-assurance for those who want it. You are free to ignore it if you wish.

The presentation was from 2015. The definitions of the offside line change in 2019 (as a result of the England NZ game )

 

[crossref]

It's not any old bit of any old player as the laws still define a ruck participant as being on their feet so from a law standpoint the hindmost point should be a foot. Nothing contradictory in the laws that I can see even if it doesn't pan out like that in practice.

I don't see a definition of ruck participants?
What do you consider is the meaning and impact of the 2019 Law change ?

 

[Zebra1922]

I don't see a definition of ruck participants?
What do you consider is the meaning and impact of the 2019 Law change ?

I think that's question for another thread. Back on topic I see nothing in the law change about the rear of a ruck which would amend the 2015 directive or how the majority of referees interpret offside. If you have hands on the ground in front of the offside line you are considered offside and liable to penalty.

Frequently seen at/near the goal line, but an offence anywhere (although you are unlikely to see defenders in a sprinters crouch on the 10m line!)

 

[Taff]

The presentation was from 2015. The definitions of the offside line change in 2019 (as a result of the England v NZ game)

The definitions of the offside lines may have changed, but the principle still stands surely - that defending players should have their hands either on or behind the offside line.

 

[Pinky]

The definitions of the offside lines may have changed, but the principle still stands surely - that defending players should have their hands either on or behind the offside line.

Taff in fact the defenders should not have their hands on the ground at all, but if they are touching the ground it should be behind the offside line

 

[Zebra1922]

Taff in fact the defenders should not have their hands on the ground at all, but if they are touching the ground it should be behind the offside line

I'm going to get pedantic now, but what law stops a player from having their hands on the ground in a defensive, sprinter style start position? Surely we're not saying they're on the ground and out of the game? Even if you do as soon as they lift that hand they are back OK again?

 

[OB..]

I'm going to get pedantic now,

Since the laws make no attempt to define what constitutes being in front of the offside line, pedantry cannot help.

Convention is pragmatic and dictates that if you are stationary, what matters is the part(s) of you touching the ground. (It gets tricky if a player is running or jumping.)

 

[menace]

I'm going to get pedantic now, but what law stops a player from having their hands on the ground in a defensive, sprinter style start position? Surely we're not saying they're on the ground and out of the game? Even if you do as soon as they lift that hand they are back OK again?

Nothing, but as Pinky says, provided their hands are behind the offside line.
Both Ruck and Maul laws.say
"
Players must join the ruck or retire behind their offside line immediately."
(They removed "feet" from the law wording and I believe specifically to address the "3 point stance")

 

[Pinky]

I'm going to get pedantic now, but what law stops a player from having their hands on the ground in a defensive, sprinter style start position? Surely we're not saying they're on the ground and out of the game? Even if you do as soon as they lift that hand they are back OK again?

The law that requires players to stay on their feet