How about this one ?

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
Knocked backwards (towards own DBL) but travels forwards over the ground

This is simple, right ? A knock on
 

BikingBud


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
377
Post Likes
88
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
So follow the framework:

Knock-on:
When a player loses possession of the ball Yes and it goes forward, Yes or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground Yes or another player before the original player can catch it Yes.

So you have to get a positive for each "And" If you get a negative for any of the "And" clauses the logic does not add up.

So yep, knock on.

I think this reflects a good point of review in the comments:
David Winter
He looses control at the beginning of the 15 meter line and the ball lands a good 3 or 4 meters along it so knock on.
Richard Nash
David Winter With that sort of reasoning every pass made when players are at speed will have to be ruled forward passes.
David Winter
Richard Nash
No because a pass is allowed to travel forward as long as the arms of the passing player travel in a backward direction, there is no such allowances for knock on’s.​

Again on that forum there is confusion about:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

and -

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.
 

BikingBud


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
377
Post Likes
88
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Whilst I enjoy the opportunity to challenge and clarify my interpretation and understanding of the laws, it improves my performance, I really do think you need to consider what you are trying to achieve here. You now have 5 separate threads all discussing areas where you appear to have difficulty in interpreting the laws. Counting votes will not work, it is not refereeing by committee and those people cannot assist you during a game.

May I draw your attention to a couple of earlier posts: #104 #106

If you really believe there is a lack of clarity then please submit and seek a law clarification.

And on that note I am out.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
@BikingBud if you don't think the thread is interesting then of course.don't post !

If no one posts the thread dies

My purpose has been to show that the knock on and throw forward laws are not as clear as one might think. I reckon I have succeeded.

And, more important, my threads have been popular, and i suspect (without counting) you may be the single biggest contributor, so thank you for your support
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
This is also a knock on, though very hard to get correct in real time IMHO.

A layperson might say that the ball went backwards because it left his hands traveling behind him, but in rugby laws forwards is defined relative to the dead ball lines, not the player. The ball landed closer to the opposition dead ball line in relation to the place where possession was lost, therefore knock-on.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
This is also a knock on, though very hard to get correct in real time IMHO.

A layperson might say that the ball went backwards because it left his hands traveling behind him, but in rugby laws forwards is defined relative to the dead ball lines, not the player. The ball landed closer to the opposition dead ball line in relation to the place where possession was lost, therefore knock-on.
well.. for a throw forward, what matters is the direction of the hands (forwards/backward) relative to the player. We don't care how his hands are moving relative to the ground (ie for a player running at speed : forwards)

for a knock on, while it's not stated explicitly in the Laws, it is generally accepted that we don't consider the direction of the knock relative to the player, but consider only the ball's movement relative to the ground.
 
Last edited:

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
well.. for a throw forward, what matters is the direction of the hands (forwards/backward) relative to the player. We don't care how his hands are moving relative to the ground (ie for a player running at speed : forwards)

for a knock on, while it's not stated explicitly in the Laws, it is generally accepted that we don't consider the direction of the knock relative to the player, but consider only the ball's movement relative to the ground.

This example is not a throw forward, so no point bringing that into the conversation.

For a knock-on, it does not matter what is NOT stated explicitly in the laws, it is important what IS stated in the laws... forward = towards the opposition's dead-ball line. Saying that it is generally accepted that we don't consider the direction of the knock on relative to the player is totally irrelevant to the laws... it's not stated explicitly in the Laws though it is generally accepted that we don't consider the direction of the knock relative to the time of day, or the weather, or which team is playing... all irrelevant, so no need to state explicitly in the laws.

As we have now covered across multiple threads, the law is in fact clear on the definitions of possession, a knock-on and forward.

While multiple people on Facebook continue to share their version of the laws, that does not change what is actually written in the Laws... intriguing comments from the other example include, "you also have to take into account where the law takes into affect a "bobbled ball" in a tackle", and "Play on and try awarded. Calling a knock on doesn't pass the "spirit of the game" smell test. Player showed good athletic ability to recover and tap the ball back into play. The ref did a good job staying out of a good play without being overly technical."
 
Last edited:

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
yes, this thread is about a knock on, but you made the general comment that ..
but in rugby laws forwards is defined relative to the dead ball lines, not the player.

which is not actually the case because

Throw forward When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward

in that definition the word 'forward' means forward relative to the player. (we don't look at the movement of the arms relative to the ground)


Knock-on[ When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

while in this context we all accept that forward means relative to the ground
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
yes, this thread is about a knock on, but you made the general comment that ..


which is not actually the case because

Throw forward When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward

in that definition the word 'forward' means forward relative to the player. (we don't look at the movement of the arms relative to the ground)


Knock-on[ When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

while in this context we all accept that forward means relative to the ground


No, the throw forward still uses the same definition of forward as the knock-on... a throw forward is if the arms of the player passing the ball move toward the opposition's dead-ball line. There is only one definition of forward in the Law Book... there are not 2 different entries for forward depending on throw forward or knock-on.

Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.

Often a scrum half at the back of a maul/scrum/ruck faces towards his fly-half standing behind... his arms move in front of him, forward relative to his body (ie relative to the player) when he passes, but they move away from the opposition's dead-ball line, therefore not a forward pass.

A throw forward is concerned with the movement of the arms, a knock-on is concerned with the movement of the ball, but the definition of forward remains the same.

If you want to get really literal, a decision on a forward pass or knock-on should be taken in relation to a freeze-frame taken at the moment possession is lost by the ball carrier, at which point forward is equally relative to the player's position (but not which direction he is facing), the ground and the opponent's dead-ball line... forward is the direction across the ground from the player to the opposition's dead-ball line.
 
Last edited:

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
sigh - when a player is running at speed and makes a normal, good, pass to his team mate

- relative to the ground his body, his arms, his hands and the ball ALL travel forward - ie move toward the DBL

Throw forward When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward

- but it's not a throw forward because, relative to his body, his arms and hands moved backwards.

that Australian rugby video demonstrated this years ago.
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
sigh - when a player is running at speed and makes a normal, good, pass to his team mate

- relative to the ground his body, his arms, his hands and the ball ALL travel forward - ie move toward the DBL



- but it's not a throw forward because, relative to his body, his arms and hands moved backwards.

that Australian rugby video demonstrated this years ago.

Throw forward When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward

in that definition the word 'forward' means forward relative to the player. (we don't look at the movement of the arms relative to the ground)


Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.

Forward is a direction, in this case towards the opponent's dead-ball line.

A forward pass must be relative to the opponent's DBL... how can a forward pass be only relative to a player's body, how are you judging direction? If I face my own DBL and throw the ball over my shoulder, is that forwards or backwards... backwards relative to me, forwards relative to the opponent's DBL... is it a forward pass if caught, would it be a knock-on if it hits the ground? Of course it is! (NB, the dead-ball line is painted on the ground, therefore relative to the DBL = relative to the ground.)

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

I believe you should be focused only on the change of direction of the arms during the motion of the pass. During the pass, do the arms accelerate towards the opponent's dead-ball line?

when a player is running at speed and makes a normal, good, pass to his team mate

- relative to the ground his body, his arms, his hands and the ball ALL travel forward - ie move toward the DBL
Even in this example, the player, his arms and the ball are moving forwards, however, during a forward pass the arms have a greater acceleration towards the opponent's DBL. Focus only on movement of the arms, and whether in the direction of the opponent's DBL.

Overall, is this relative to the ground, the dead-ball line, the player's body? In reality, a forward pass is the position of the hands at the start of the passing motion relative to the position of the hands at the point of ball release, BUT, this MUST also be relative to the opposition's dead-ball line in order to define the direction (i.e. forward or not).
 
Last edited:

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
i think you are getting the point.
Throughout the whole passing motion the players arms are actually getting closer to the opponents DBL
but that doesn't matter, as relative to the player the arms move backawards to execute a legal pass
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
i think you are getting the point.
Throughout the whole passing motion the players arms are actually getting closer to the opponents DBL
but that doesn't matter, as relative to the player the arms move backawards to execute a legal pass
I think you missed the point.

You are still obsessing with velocity of the whole player rather than focusing on the motion of the arms relative to the DBL.

I suppose it comes down to which way you can most easily understand it... The Laws and definitions do not describe a forward pass being relative to the player (please point me to the relevant text if I'm wrong), so describing a forward pass relative to the player is your version, but if it gets you where you need to be then it's all good. Similarly, the video you referenced provides an alternative explanation to what I have provided above, but that is not contrary to my explanation. However, you can unpick the relative velocity approach when a player is running towards their own try line, per my example above (which you've chosen to ignore), therefore you must judge a forward pass relative to the opponent's DBL... This is why my explanation above focuses on first principles to avoid such loopholes.

However, whether you want to admit it or not, or whether you even realise, you are still making your forward pass decision relative to the DBL because that defines which direction is considered to be forward.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
I guess all I can do is point you to the video.

the player, the players arms, and the ball are all travelling toward the DBL - but it's not a throw forward. Why not?


 
Last edited:

Rich_NL

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,542
Post Likes
448
Crossref, you're arguing for the sake of it.

Throw forward = the arms go forward relative to the player. But that is still the same definition of forward as KO = ball is lost forward relative to the ground. Throwing the ball in the direction your facing, out of your hands, isn't a problem if you're facing your own DBL. Because we're using a consistent definition of forward, with different frames of reference.

It means exactly the same. Just with a different frame of reference.

No one else seems to have trouble with this, and I suspect you're only trying to keep a discussion alive at this point.
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
I guess all I can do is point you to the video.

The ball, the player, and the players arms, are all travelling toward the DBL - but it's not a throw forward. Why not?


My explanation perfectly explains this... During the pass, do the arms accelerate towards the opponent's dead-ball line? In the video the passer's hands do not accelerate forward towards the opponent's DBL, therefore it is not a forward pass.

I think the issue here is that you say I am wrong, whereas I say your explanation works but is conditional on the player's velocity, ie which direction the player is running. If your version is conditional then it is not robust and cannot be a complete explanation.

Back to my example, if a player runs towards their own DBL and throws the ball over their shoulder towards the opponent's DBL... My explanation, hands have accelerated towards opponent's DBL therefore forward pass, your version, hands have moved back towards the player's body, therefore not a forward pass... Do you really think this pass is OK?

It is fact that the definitions in the law book provide only one definition of forward (towards the opposition’s dead-ball line), therefore you must work this into your explanation of a forward pass.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
Crossref, you're arguing for the sake of it.

Throw forward = the arms go forward relative to the player. But that is still the same definition of forward as KO = ball is lost forward relative to the ground.
Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. Don't know why it seems controversial! Or why anyone disagrees

One is relative to the player
The other is relative to the ground

A throw forward is when arms (and ball) go forward relatie to the player

A knock on is where the ball goes forward realtive to the ground


Perhaps you have expressed it more clearly than I could
 
Last edited:

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
@crossref The controversial issue is that you say there are two different definitions of 'forward' in the laws... I can find one entry in the definitions, still waiting for someone to show me the second in which "the word 'forward' means forward relative to the player".
 
Top