If you doubted the effects of not refereeing the put-in law see here

[bcm666]

Three possible British Lions, two from the front row demonstrate the fundamentals of elite scrummaging - any omissions? When this is official training and coaching material how badly screwed up is that law at that level?


http://t.co/JwH1oWy7

 

[OB..]

Three possible British Lions, two from the front row demonstrate the fundamentals of elite scrummaging - any omissions? When this is official training and coaching material how badly screwed up is that law at that level?


http://t.co/JwH1oWy7

An interesting video, but I'm afraid I don't see your point about the throw-in - it is not mentioned.

 

[Dixie]

As a #11, 12 or 13 in my playing days, I am afraid I need a bit more explanation. The thing that struck me was that the players seemed to want to "hit" with shoulders below hips, only dipping the knee to achieve the horizontal as the ball comes in. If that is coached, it seems very likely that the SET will result in a collapse to ground. Apart from that, the only thing that seemed odd was that they dispensed with the loosie - but I've never seen that flow through to elite matches - where only the hooker seems dispensible. :wink:

 

[chbg]

An interesting video, but I'm afraid I don't see your point about the throw-in - it is not mentioned.

I'm sure BCM's point is that the 'hooker' is not in a position to hook ...

 

[Dixie]

I'm sure BCM's point is that the 'hooker' is not in a position to hook ...

Looked fine to me. All he has to do is bring a foot forward. I'll grant you it didn't look efficient - must hookers I see like to be less square on, with the right hip slightly forward.

 

[bcm666]

The replies here show the lack of specialist front row knowledge.

First, at any other level the hooker is the prime consideration. It is the hooker's comfort and ability to strike that is paramount, not the tight head; he has to be put in a steady, stable and comfortable position.

Second, the front on stance does not enable any hooker to hook a ball fed correctly if the scrum remains static.

Third, there is no mention at all about the strike or timing of the put-in, it is assumed that the push is all that is needed and what is necessary.

Anyone who has played hooker on this forum will find this video confirms all I have said about non-hooking hookers at this level and the fact that people thought nothing strange about the technical aspect of the video is alarming frankly.

 

[TNT88]

Given that the opposition scrum don't necessarily want to focus on hooking, wouldn't the attacking scrum get at that level get demolished if they didn't focus on the hit first, rather than the "hook" as a priority?

It's a fair point though, we might not have come exactly this far if hooking was always important due to the feed.

 

[OB..]

The replies here show the lack of specialist front row knowledge.

Certainly true in my case, which is why I asked. Thanks for the explanation.

Given that the opposition scrum don't necessarily want to focus on hooking, wouldn't the attacking scrum get at that level get demolished if they didn't focus on the hit first, rather than the "hook" as a priority?

It's a fair point though, we might not have come exactly this far if hooking was always important due to the feed.

I still think my point is valid that if the scrum is moving a straight throw-in is impossible. The first thing we need is to get the scrum "stationary and parallel" over the mark (Law 20.1 (j)) before the feed, and then
(1) the referee will do his safety checks before allowing the scrum half to throw the ball in; and
(2) the referee will then be able to insist on a straight feed.

This will actually reduce the incentive to hit as hard as possible, and AIUI the University of Buckingham research suggests that will not impair the eventual shove.

 

[Ian_Cook]

An interesting video, but I'm afraid I don't see your point about the throw-in - it is not mentioned.

That actually might be part of his point?

 

[The Fat]

IMO, the video is aimed only at addressing body shape and angles/height of backs, legs etc.
I do agree with bcm that they give the impression that the hit and shove is all there is but I do believe that they are probably just concentrating on 1 or 2 components at a time in order to make short instructional videos.

I would like to see them do a follow up video concentrating on hooking and timing of the feed to see how they transition from what they have said in this video to actually hooking for the ball.

Whilst on the subject of scrum technique, has anyone here had the opportunity to read "The Art of Scrummaging" by Topo Rodriguez?
Scrums still contain too much black science for me and I am looking for a good read in an attempt to enter the headspace of the front row brigade. If anyone has read it or has any other feedback on the book, would love to know.

 

[Davet]

The video is demonstrating the body positions and techniques for the 8-man shove - there is no indication that the hooker would ever want to hook - and the assertion that hooker wanted to ensure the tight head was comfortable was unusual - at least in my experience.

I would normally expect the hooker to be the one who need to be comfortable, and indeed be the one on whom there was no pressure - I have seen many sessions where the scrum packed down against the machine, and the hooker was asked to simply lift his arms, releasing his binds, and drop to floor and crawl out of the tunnel - while the machine was shoved by the rest. If he could do that without difficulty then he also had the freedom to hook for the ball.

But if the opposition decide to opt for the 8-man shove against the 7+hooker of the put in team, then if they are good the put in side is nudged backwards - and loses the ball. This can be countered by feeding.... Or by making it a pure strength issue and shoving back with all 8 as the video seems to suggest - RIP the art of Hooking?

That said the French tried picking 3 props many years ago, and failed - but perhaps techniques have changed since then?

I don't think the video represents an ignorance of the hooking art, but a pragmatic admission that its practice is in decline.

 

[bcm666]

Certainly true in my case, which is why I asked. Thanks for the explanation.
I still think my point is valid that if the scrum is moving a straight throw-in is impossible. The first thing we need is to get the scrum "stationary and parallel" over the mark (Law 20.1 (j)) before the feed, and then
(1) the referee will do his safety checks before allowing the scrum half to throw the ball in; and
(2) the referee will then be able to insist on a straight feed.


This will actually reduce the incentive to hit as hard as possible, and AIUI the University of Buckingham research suggests that will not impair the eventual shove.

I agree. This may not be achieved the way I would like - ie the elite referees doing their job properly but the safety research will mandate a more passive engagement. That will make the subsequent early drive more difficult and easier to spot and all else, as you point out, should follow.

- - - Updated - - -

The video is demonstrating the body positions and techniques for the 8-man shove - there is no indication that the hooker would ever want to hook - and the assertion that hooker wanted to ensure the tight head was comfortable was unusual - at least in my experience.

I would normally expect the hooker to be the one who need to be comfortable, and indeed be the one on whom there was no pressure - I have seen many sessions where the scrum packed down against the machine, and the hooker was asked to simply lift his arms, releasing his binds, and drop to floor and crawl out of the tunnel - while the machine was shoved by the rest. If he could do that without difficulty then he also had the freedom to hook for the ball.

But if the opposition decide to opt for the 8-man shove against the 7+hooker of the put in team, then if they are good the put in side is nudged backwards - and loses the ball. This can be countered by feeding.... Or by making it a pure strength issue and shoving back with all 8 as the video seems to suggest - RIP the art of Hooking?

That said the French tried picking 3 props many years ago, and failed - but perhaps techniques have changed since then?

I don't think the video represents an ignorance of the hooking art, but a pragmatic admission that its practice is in decline.

No, it isn't.

 

[L'irlandais]

I like the high-tech French scrum machine. It was invented to reduce scrum injuries. The Inventor (who name escapes me just now) highlighted the engagement as a moment when injury was most likely to occur. France has built a Nationwide programme of front row training around the technology. (+ the "Baby scrum" machine)
The other Unions don't seem to be interested in the developement.

A much more informative video clip on Total Rugby - French Scrum Machine (in English to boot)

Of course, one can't believe half of what one sees relating to this cool machine.

 

[bcm666]

The video is demonstrating the body positions and techniques for the 8-man shove - there is no indication that the hooker would ever want to hook - and the assertion that hooker wanted to ensure the tight head was comfortable was unusual - at least in my experience.

I would normally expect the hooker to be the one who need to be comfortable, and indeed be the one on whom there was no pressure - I have seen many sessions where the scrum packed down against the machine, and the hooker was asked to simply lift his arms, releasing his binds, and drop to floor and crawl out of the tunnel - while the machine was shoved by the rest. If he could do that without difficulty then he also had the freedom to hook for the ball.

But if the opposition decide to opt for the 8-man shove against the 7+hooker of the put in team, then if they are good the put in side is nudged backwards - and loses the ball. This can be countered by feeding.... Or by making it a pure strength issue and shoving back with all 8 as the video seems to suggest - RIP the art of Hooking?

That said the French tried picking 3 props many years ago, and failed - but perhaps techniques have changed since then?

I don't think the video represents an ignorance of the hooking art, but a pragmatic admission that its practice is in decline.

The French failed because referees would not allow a bent feed and the third prop could not hook so they had to pick proper hookers. It would be the same today if elite referees did their job properly.

 

[OB..]

A much more informative video clip on Total Rugby - French Scrum Machine (in English to boot).

Fascinating that right near the beginning you get an excellent view of the ball being fed behind the "hooker's" feet.

 

[Davet]

Well ther's that - and the sight of the LHP binding on the machine's sleeve and pulling it down.

But I was most concerned about the comments describing time spent on scrums as "wasted" - as if they are an inconvenience, and the less time spent on them then the better. This little refrain is picking up mementum, and needs to be stamped on. Scrums are an integral, and endlessly fascinating struggle for supremacy, a perfect combination of Power, Skill, Technique, and downright chicanery, that provide huge entertainment in their own right.

 

[Davet]

Brian

From your post I take it that you feel even an 8-man shove is best countered by a proper hooker, provided the ref enforces the straight feed.

I would agree, given a highly skilled hooker, who has worked on timing with his 9 and can hoo the ball before the shove comes on - since that cannot come on until the ball is put in.

Yet another reason for enforcing square and steady before put-in, and a strainght feed - You are preaching to the converted. My post was simply an attempt to explain, even to mourn the passing of the hooking art, not justify it.

 

[L'irlandais]

Forgot the :sarc: there in #16 Davet ?

Nice TV 'sound bite' for BCM666 for the England v France game next Saturday :

By definition :
The purpose of the scrum is to restart play quickly, safely and fairly, after a minor infringement or a stoppage.

Currently scrums are anything but quick, not all that safe given the number of collapses and with the guesswork by some referees, at Elite level, as to who might, or might not be infringing, it's hardly fair either.

That said it remains a restart, a restart, a restart....

 

[Davet]

Forgot the :sarc: there Davet ?

What's :sarc: mean?

- - - Updated - - -

By definition : The purpose of the scrum is to restart play quickly, safely and fairly, after a minor infringement or a stoppage.

See! Even the iRB are at it.

The purpose of a scrum is to allow your forwards to dominate and dishearten the opposition.

Do I need a symbol here? If so, which? If I'm honest then actually this comment is probably at least half true.

 

[OB..]

New scrum law being trialled in SA http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-changes-explained/2829825/

Law 20.1 (g)The referee will call “crouch”, then “touch”. The props touch as before and withdraw their arms. The referee will then call “set”.
But the scrum calls in South Africa for all except professional rugby, provincial Under-19 and Under-21 rugby, and the first teams of the teams in the top club competitions in each of the provinces will be different.
The call for these scrums will be "crouch", then "bind", then "scrum".
In professional rugby, provincial Under-19 and Under-21 rugby and the 1st XVs of clubs in the top club competition in each province, the IRB scrum laws and procedures will apply.
When the front rows couch they will do so in such a way that ears are next to ears, so that the six sets of ears will form a line across the tunnel of the scrum.
On the call scrum, the ball will be put into the scrum, which means that the scrum then starts.

I hope they will take the opportunity to enforce a credible feed.