infringement preventing QTI

[Dickie E]

a different thread made me wonder about this.

Red kick from their 10 metre line and ball goes out on full on Blue 22 metre line (therefore no gain in ground). Ref blows whistle.

Blue player gathers ball and prepares to make a QTI but an onside Red player starts jumping around in the 5 metre channel and prevents the QTI. The ref attempts to verbally manage the Red player from infringing but to no avail.

What is the correct sanction?

a) free kick 15 metres in, in line with where infringement occurred (Blue 22)?
b) penalty kick 15 metres in, in line with where infringement occurred (Blue 22)?
c) free kick 15 metres in, on line of touch (Red 10 metre line)?
d) penalty kick 15 metres in, on line of touch (Red 10 metre line)?

 

[Taff]

Flying by the seat of my pants here, but I would say Free Kick on the 15m line where the infringement occurred.

 

[Drift]

Law says FK. I've PKd in the past and no one has argued.

 

[Dickie E]

Law says FK. I've PKd in the past and no one has argued.

At what location?

 

[crossref]

What Law?

 

[Womble]

a different thread made me wonder about this.

Red kick from their 10 metre line and ball goes out on full on Blue 22 metre line (therefore no gain in ground). Ref blows whistle.

Blue player gathers ball and prepares to make a QTI but an onside Red player starts jumping around in the 5 metre channel and prevents the QTI. The ref attempts to verbally manage the Red player from infringing but to no avail.

What is the correct sanction?

a) free kick 15 metres in, in line with where infringement occurred (Blue 22)?
b) penalty kick 15 metres in, in line with where infringement occurred (Blue 22)?
c) free kick 15 metres in, on line of touch (Red 10 metre line)?
d) penalty kick 15 metres in, on line of touch (Red 10 metre line)?

Has the Blue player thrown the ball or is the red player just dancing?

 

[Dickie E]

Has the Blue player thrown the ball or is the red player just dancing?

He's just dancing but my query is more about the location of the sanction more than the sanction itself.

A clue: is this misconduct while the ball is out of play?

 

[crossref]

It's neither out of play nor in play. It's neither live nor dead. It's the zombie ball

 

[Dickie E]

It's neither out of play nor in play. It's neither live nor dead. It's the zombie ball

So where's the restart, zombie-boy?

 

[crossref]

It's a fantastic question

I am thinking about it!

 

[Taff]

So where's the restart, zombie-boy?

Surely it would have restarted at the QTI if it wasn't for the offence.

 

[Dickie E]

It's a fantastic question

I am thinking about it!

"ref, you blew time off 20 minutes ago. Its getting dark. Can we get on with the game ........ PLEASE?"

 

[Womble]

He's just dancing but my query is more about the location of the sanction more than the sanction itself.

A clue: is this misconduct while the ball is out of play?

Is there a sanction? do you ping players for dancing over there ? for me there is nothing to do unless the ball is thrown for the QTI !

 

[crossref]

My first thought is - is it actually an offence?
- In another thread some time ago I posted the scenario of an player hurrying to touch a loose ball, so as to prevent the opponent's QTI.
- The overwhelming consensus there was you can do that -- there is no offence.
- So is it an offence to dance around?

womble thinks it's not an offence. I think that's tricky as its defintiely a potential flashpoint : the blue can very quickly lose their temper when it happens.

Let's say for sake of argument it is an offence (in which case I'd give a PK not a FK)

Or if people don't like that - let's say that red gets completely carried away with his close-up haka and head-butts the would-be QTI taker. Deffo a PK now.

the ball is a zombie ball, I'd say that it makes perfect sense to apply this :

[LAWS]Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play, commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart. If that place is on the touchline or within 15 metres of it, the mark for the penalty kick is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.[/LAWS]

In your scenario blue were intending to take a QTI, and that could have been anywhere on the pitch from their own goal line, to the line of touch. So I think the PK should be at the place most advatageous to them -- at the LoT, 15m in.

 

[Phil E]

Law 19.2(h)

FK, although it doesn't state where. I would probably go with the place of the offence, 15m in.

In answer to Womble....no he didn't throw it in, because he couldn't with a player jumping up and down right in front of him. To me the offence is still there and the intent is to stop or slow down the QTI ('IF' one was on).

If you let it play out then the thrower chucks the ball into the face of the dancer, result flash point. Just nip it in the bud by penalising if there was a QTI in the offing (there rarely is), or managing it if there was never a chance of a QTI.

 

[crossref]

Just nip it in the bud by penalising if there was a QTI in the offing (there rarely is), or managing it if there was never a chance of a QTI.

are you encouraging the flashpoint?
- if he throws it in the face he gets a FK
- if he doesn't throw it then essentually nothing happens (yes, Sir has a word with the oppo but...)

 

[Dickie E]

Law 19.2(h)

FK, although it doesn't state where. I would probably go with the place of the offence, 15m in.

In answer to Womble....no he didn't throw it in, because he couldn't with a player jumping up and down right in front of him. To me the offence is still there and the intent is to stop or slow down the QTI ('IF' one was on).

If you let it play out then the thrower chucks the ball into the face of the dancer, result flash point. Just nip it in the bud by penalising if there was a QTI in the offing (there rarely is), or managing it if there was never a chance of a QTI.

OK, forget the dancing player. He headbuts the player with the ball (as per crossref). Where is restart? (red card etc taken as read).

 

[Phil E]

OK, forget the dancing player. He headbuts the player with the ball (as per crossref). Where is restart? (red card etc taken as read).

In line with the place of the offence 15m in.

 

[ddjamo]

here's my take on situations like this:

1 - did the dancer gain an advantage or take away an advantage?
2 - was the thrower really going to take a throw deep in his territory or was he just looking at options?
3 - did the thrower's side have a real chance at using the throw in to their advantage?
4 - is the throwing in side winning their own lineouts?
5 - is the dancer's side winning by a large margin?
6 - what is the temperament of the match - any piss taking?
7 - are the players fully bought in to the referees standard?
....plus many others we have to run through our heads in a flash - or at least I do.

we then have several tools we can use to do what is best for the match. one example: dancer's side is up by 45 pts and we are at the 50min mark, the throwing side is losing all set pieces and is a bit demoralized. this action is nothing more than a reason for the throwing in side to start getting cheap, retaliate and show that they won't be pushed around. imo it's the ref's duty to manage a match and give the players a game within the framework of the laws. I may go back to the place of the kick and award a fk on the 15m. giving the throwing in side a pk at the place of infringement means they have to find touch AND win a lineout, etc, etc.

lets not lose sight of the fact that we are given a tool box and it's how we pull the tools and use them that determines the standard and outcome, safety and enjoyment of the match.

 

[Taff]

Is there a sanction? for me there is nothing to do unless the ball is thrown for the QTI !

... In answer to Womble....no he didn't throw it in, because he couldn't with a player jumping up and down right in front of him. To me the offence is still there and the intent is to stop or slow down the QTI ('IF' one was on).

If you let it play out then the thrower chucks the ball into the face of the dancer, result flash point.

Or the Ref considers it a "contrived offence" and plays on.

The "dancer" obviously thinks it's having an effect ... otherwise why do it?