Injury query

Na Madrai


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Level 8 league match.

Approximately thirty minutes into the match, home team second row damages shoulder attempting a tackle. After quite a long period of attention, match resumes. However, on four further occasions, physio is on the pitch attending this player for this injury, for increasingly longer periods of time.

Eventually, with the score standing at 5 - 3 and nine minutes left on the clock, down he goes again for the sixth time following an innocuous colision. This time, I inform his skipper that his match is over and that he be replaced. Skipper asks the player who confirms that he will play on. The physio states that in her opinion, player can play on. I turn to skipper and state that this is not a matter for debate, his match is over, he can be substituted or sent off. Player is substituted, match finishes 13 - 3 with a length of the field try in the closing seconds.

In the bar, I had a very mixed reception. The majority, including the second team's referee, thought that I had overstepped my responsibility but a surprising number agreed with my decision. Visiting skipper thought that his opposite number should have replaced the player long before - 'we all have to go to work on Monday!'

So, does a referee have the authority to force the removal of a player through injury other than in a case of concussion?

NM
 

Accylad


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Never been faced with this but I don't believe you do.

My approach would have been (after the first reasonably extensive treatment) to have played on while the player was being treated. This would encourage interchanges while he was treated.
 

Adam


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The only reason I think you can is if a player has been interchanged twice for injuries, then he can't return.
 

The Fat


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At our level, the ref has the authority to stop a player from taking any further part in the game due to injury under Law 3.9

3.9 The referee’s power to stop an injured player from continuing

If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may order that player to leave the playing area. The referee may also order an injured player to leave the field in order to be medically examined.
 

Simon Thomas


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In a L8 League match I think you exceeded your authority, manage it with to the book injury time off.
 
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Phil E


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As the length of the injury stops got longer, stop the clock each time.
They only have a minute to treat the player, so after the minute they have to interchange him to carry on the treatment on the sidelines.
As has been mentioned, if he then gets interchanged for an injury a second time, he can't come back on.

Game speeds up, the regulations have been followed.
 

Browner

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Even if via interchanges is the best way to handle that scenario, why doesn't 3.9 give NM the authority... IF he's concerned for the wellbeing of the player?
 

Rushforth


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Even if via interchanges is the best way to handle that scenario, why doesn't 3.9 give NM the authority... IF he's concerned for the wellbeing of the player?

Surely that's precisely the reason for 3.9?

Everybody is on adreniline - including the referee - and players can't be trusted to make the right decision in cases of suspected concussion.

We don't have interchanges here (formally at least, rolling subs are by consent at lower levels), but if the regulation improves on the law, so much the better, and perhaps we should look at them, at least at the lower levels.
 

Pegleg

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The only reason I think you can is if a player has been interchanged twice for injuries, then he can't return.


Justification? Law 3.9 seems not to agree with you.
 

Pegleg

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Surely that's precisely the reason for 3.9?

Everybody is on adreniline - including the referee - and players can't be trusted to make the right decision in cases of suspected concussion.

We don't have interchanges here (formally at least, rolling subs are by consent at lower levels), but if the regulation improves on the law, so much the better, and perhaps we should look at them, at least at the lower levels.

This does not seem to be a concussion issue but I agree that, surely Law 3.9 give the ref full authority to act as the OP did.

Can Phil, Simon or Adam quote (link) the regulation that overrides the laws of the game?
 

OB..


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In a L8 League match I think you exceeded your authority, manage it with to the book injury time off.
I don't really see why.

I think I have mentioned before a match where a player was knocked-out, but the team tried to put him back on some half an hour later. The referee refused to allow it. This was level 8, and I supported the referee's decision under 3.9.
 

Phil E


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Can Phil, Simon or Adam quote (link) the regulation that overrides the laws of the game?

For RFU land, regulation 13, appendix 2

22. Not more than two Player Interchanges per team may occur at any one time and may only occur during a stoppage in play and with the knowledge of the Referee who is entitled in his sole opinion to refuse to allow or postpone a Player Interchange if he believes either that the Player Interchange would prevent the opposition from restarting the game quickly or where a Player has been injured or that it would not be safe for the replacement Player who has been previously injured to play in the match.

25. A Player who suffers two injuries in a match which has necessitated that Player being replaced on each occasion is not permitted to act as a replacement following the second injury.
 

Blackberry


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OB, Simon was referring to this particular context / the scenario described.

Edit@ though I completely agree with OB's point that we have a complete veto and I have used it before.
 
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Simon Thomas


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I don't really see why.

I think I have mentioned before a match where a player was knocked-out, but the team tried to put him back on some half an hour later. The referee refused to allow it. This was level 8, and I supported the referee's decision under 3.9.

As indeed I would OB in the case of concussion which has very clear RFU guidelines to follow.
In the case in the OP with a persistent shoulder it is a management issue in my view, and could have been dealt with through use of the down time time off of 2 minutes, and getting the player off the pitch, or playing on until a scrum was required, as long as play was near the player/physio.
 

Simon Thomas


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Pegleg - in the RFU Regs, regulation 13 I think.
 

Ciaran Trainor


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I think you were absolutely right to ask for him to be replaced. Well done. I would have been tempted to play on the third time this player was being attended to for the same injury. I'm sure he would have been replaced then anyway. i had a team yesterday who seemed to pick up injuries when under pressure. First time I said we are playing on there was a miraculous recovery! I even heard one guy say to a team mate take a knee. In this instance the player had taken a knock and was admirably trying to get up to play on so I was happy to stop play for attention but informed the skipper I dont want to here that call again!
 

RobLev

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Pegleg, its in the RFU regs, no 13

Does Reg 13 App 2 para 22/23 over-rule Law 3.9, or simply give the referee another power to prevent a player continuing?
 

Phil E


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Does Reg 13 App 2 para 22/23 over-rule Law 3.9, or simply give the referee another power to prevent a player continuing?

Well I'm not a lawyer, what do you think?

All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific Regulations applicable to a competition including, All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific Regulations applicable to a competition including, without limitation, the Premiership Regulations, Championship Regulations, Anglo-Welsh Cup Regulations and British & Irish Cup Regulations (as applicable).
In matches where rolling substitutions and/or the man-off rule are permitted, the Regulations set out in Appendix 2 of RFU Regulation 13 will apply.

to set regulations for inclusion in non-RFU competitions and to amend non-RFU competition regulations if contrary to RFU Regulations or the IRB Laws of the Game (and any such variations or Law trials as may be adopted by the RFU).

All matches played under the jurisdiction of the RFU and/or in RFU Competitions or any other competition or merit table must be played in accordance with the IRB Laws, IRB Regulations, the RFU Rules, the RFU Regulations and any competition specific Regulations applicable to a competition including, without limitation, the Premiership Regulations, Championship Regulations, Anglo-Welsh Cup Regulations and British & Irish Cup Regulations (as applicable).

There's more, this is just what i picked out after a quick perusal of regulation 13.
 

Pegleg

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For RFU land, regulation 13, appendix 2

22. Not more than two Player Interchanges per team may occur at any one time and may only occur during a stoppage in play and with the knowledge of the Referee who is entitled in his sole opinion to refuse to allow or postpone a Player Interchange if he believes either that the Player Interchange would prevent the opposition from restarting the game quickly or where a Player has been injured or that it would not be safe for the replacement Player who has been previously injured to play in the match.
25. A Player who suffers two injuries in a match which has necessitated that Player being replaced on each occasion is not permitted to act as a replacement following the second injury.

3.9 THE REFEREE’S POWER TO STOP AN INJURED PLAYER FROM
CONTINUING
If the referee decides – with or without the advice of a doctor or other medically qualified
person – that a player is so injured that the player should stop playing, the referee may
order that player to leave the playing area.
The referee may also order an injured player to
leave the field in order to be medically examined.

So both say that the referee can refuse to allow an injured player (whatever the injury) to stay / return to the game. So whilst the regulations allow up to 2 interchanges for an injury. That is a MAXIMUM that the referee can overrule.

This confirms, for me that the OP was correct in his actions.
 
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