Ireland v France - HIA issue

[wayner]

In the 76th minute of today's game the French replacement scrum-half sustained a knee injury. His head was not hit in his injury. But apparently the match doctor approved an HIA. This was significant as it allowed the original scrm half Machinaud to come back on the field.

Who makes the call on this and can you use do a video review?

Nigel said "The official match doctor is telling me it is a HIA and it is the match doctor's call". But it was clearly incorrect and disadvantaged Ireland.

 

[L'irlandais]

Christy touched on it in the other discussion thread

 

[irishref]

Independent doctor my airse. It was farcical.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

In the 76th minute of today's game the French replacement scrum-half sustained a knee injury. His head was not hit in his injury. But apparently the match doctor approved an HIA. This was significant as it allowed the original scrm half Machinaud to come back on the field.

1: Who makes the call on this

and


2: can you use do a video review?

Nigel said "The official match doctor is telling me it is a HIA and it is the match doctor's call". But it was clearly incorrect and disadvantaged Ireland.

On

1: You answered your own question thus:

The official match doctor is telling me it is a HIA and it is the match doctor's call".

2: No. See Nigels reply to Question one. The TMO is a "ref" NOT a Medically Trained individual.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Independent doctor my airse. It was farcical.

Until World Rugby are solely responsible for the appointment of the Match doctor this is a problem rugby has to live with. Crossref suggest interchanges as the way forward. He could be right.

The same problem can in in the early days of replacements. A Doctor had to co0nfirm the play was unfit to continue for ANY replacement. This ewas routinely ignored with replacements going on before the doctor had examined the player. To "solve" the problem subs as well as replacemewnts were allowed.

 

[crossref]

Until World Rugby are solely responsible for the appointment of the Match doctor this is a problem rugby has to live with..

It really wouldn't make much difference - if the player told the independent match doctor, 'yes but just before that I got a massive bang to the head, and now I can't remember the score, or where I played last week' (or some such) .... it'll still be an HIA. A doctor is always going to (rightfully) err on the side of caution.

interchanges

 

[Decorily]

Nigel said "The official match doctor is telling me it is a HIA and it is the match doctor's call". But it was clearly incorrect and disadvantaged Ireland.

"..clearly incorrect..." Which bit was clearly incorrect ?

The match doctor has constant access to video review as well as input from physios etc. If a player is seen to have taken a knock etc at any point the doctor can order a HIA.

 

[crossref]

why would a doctor even have to see anything, if the player himself, or another player, or a coach tells the doctor that they saw a bang to the head, then what's the doctor (any doctor) going to do ? Say 'I don't believe you' ? Of course not, he's going to (quite rightly) order a HIA. That's kinda what HIAs are for...

 

[VM75]

I'd like to see the system changed, I don't really see a problem with the French Scrum half [who'd already been replaced ] from being allowed to rejoin the match.

Ireland wanted to profit from the injury of their opposition 9 to play out the remainder of the game 'without a true 9' in situ & that situation could give additional motivation to target arriving interchangees for special treatment.

If a team voluntarily interchanges one of their players who then gets injured then its reasonable for them to revert the original jersey occupier, our game has great values, one of them ought to be beat your opponents with skill cunning & tactics rather than injuring them to achieve your victory aims through their weakened inability to compete. [the natural limit is match day squad size - whatever that is]

So, as distasteful as the HIA/knee 'falsehoods were, I believe the french shouldn't actually be forced into a situation where they need to pull the stroke to maintain the competition of the fixture.

Crossref, Interchanges gets my vote.

 

[Treadmore]

why would a doctor even have to see anything, if the player himself, or another player, or a coach tells the doctor that they saw a bang to the head, then what's the doctor (any doctor) going to do ? Say 'I don't believe you' ? Of course not, he's going to (quite rightly) order a HIA. That's kinda what HIAs are for...

Wasn't helped by Nigel indicating a knock to the head very soon after he blew the whistle - though maybe he had a message in his ear to that effect.

 

[crossref]

So perhaps some one on the potch really did, genuinely, think they saw a blow to the head ?
In which case any doctor hearing that would likely say HIA just to be safe

 

[L'irlandais]

The only problem I have with that idea crossref, is that twice in this game, players with knee injuries were taken off for HIA. Given the scant regard begrudgingly given to player safety in Elite circle already; the protocol should not be misused as a tactical tool. Suggestions that the Independent medical doctor was erring on the side of caution, are not so convincing, when you see players, like Sexton being returned to the fray after being unconscious on the field of play. I know, one can be knocked to the head without getting a concussion. Only the HIA protocol does work that way, suspected concussion is what it deals with.
Also it is not the first time France have misused HIA to get a prefered player back on the pitch, during the dying minutes of the game.

Last year, the French Rugby Federation was reprimanded over the controversial substitution of prop Uini Atonio during their win over Wales in Paris. A review group found France had not complied with HIA protocol and/or the relevant laws of the game after Atonio was replaced during the dying stages, with preferred tighthead Rabah Slimani coming back on.

Coincidence? Maybe, but sure is starting to look like an abusif use of the player safety protocols. And yes, Interchanges will resolve the tactical aspect, however the underlying problem is not going away.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So perhaps some one on the potch really did, genuinely, think they saw a blow to the head ?
In which case any doctor hearing that would likely say HIA just to be safe

Indeed but it would stop the comments typical of the post I was replying to. A player says his head hurts and the Doc, independent or not, cannot argue he must investigate it. T oignore leaves the door wide open. This applies whoever the doc is and whatever way he was apointed. But at least the cnyde carping is put to bed if the guy is clearly independent.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So perhaps some one on the potch really did, genuinely, think they saw a blow to the head ?
In which case any doctor hearing that would likely say HIA just to be safe

Except you don't need a blow to the head to get concussion. So the player's reactions may suggest the possibility. Better safe than sorry.

 

[L'irlandais]

Both players clearly injured their knees. The suspected head injury was a red herring.

Medical examinations, held on Sunday, confirmed the coaching staff's fears for the French players injured against Ireland. Matthieu Jalibert suffers from a partial rupture of the posterior ligament of the left knee. For Antoine Dupont, it is even more serious, he suffers from a rupture of the cruciate ligaments and his season is over.

Source : MidOl

It does make one wonder about patient care; when both players were allowed hobble of the field of play, with torn knee ligaments. It’s not like they are playing grass roots rugby where they don’t have the necessary equipment to minimize further damage. stretcher, golfcart, ? A review of medical care in Elite rugby is long overdue.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

It may be. I trust you'll have no such red herrigs where a death occurs soon after. Perhaps the system that footbal tried a while ago would be possible. ANY player that recieves medical treatment MUST leave the field and cannpt return until the next stoppage. During that time the doctor can refer it to a HIA. and only then can the player be replaced.

 

[MiniRef]

It may be. I trust you'll have no such red herrigs where a death occurs soon after. Perhaps the system that footbal tried a while ago would be possible. ANY player that recieves medical treatment MUST leave the field and cannpt return until the next stoppage. During that time the doctor can refer it to a HIA. and only then can the player be replaced.

The danger of this, and indeed of interchanges, is that a genuinely injured (concussed) player may continue because he doesn't want to let his side down, or the max number of interchanges has been reached. Unless you're going to allow as many interchanges as a team wants...

 

[L'irlandais]

Personally I find it hard to believe somebody was erring on the side of caution, when you see how serious injury is dealt with in Elite rugby these days. Players are viewed as expendable. Professional rugby is plagued by ligament injuries at the moment, yet no plan exists to improve player safety in this respect.

Josh van der Flier has been ruled out of the remainder of Ireland’s Six Nations Championship after suffering a knee injury in the win over France. The flanker hobbled off before half time at the Stade de France and the worst fears were confirmed today - his season is over due to a "serious knee ligament injury".

Source RTE

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Personally I find it hard to believe somebody was erring on the side of caution, when you see how serious injury is dealt with in Elite rugby these days. Players are viewed as expendable. Professional rugby is plagued by ligament injuries at the moment, yet no plan exists to improve player safety in this respect.

Josh van der Flier has been ruled out of the remainder of Ireland’s Six Nations Championship after suffering a knee injury in the win over France. The flanker hobbled off before half time at the Stade de France and the worst fears were confirmed today - his season is over due to a "serious knee ligament injury".

Source RTE

With all due respect, A concussion carries far more worrying possible consequences than ligament / tendon or even bone injuries. Sport the world over is waking up to the issue. Rugby cannot ignore. Yes we need to watch for abuse, and come down hard on it. After all abuse of such an important matter needs t obe views seriously.

 

[Zebra1922]

With all due respect, A concussion carries far more worrying possible consequences than ligament / tendon or even bone injuries. Sport the world over is waking up to the issue. Rugby cannot ignore. Yes we need to watch for abuse, and come down hard on it. After all abuse of such an important matter needs t obe views seriously.

You've clearly never suffered a significant ligament injury. I've had a concussion and a ligament injury and I can assure you the ligament I just has had much more lasting consequences than the concussion.

I get the point you are trying to make, but be wary of such generalisations as they are not helpful to the arguments.