Ireland v New Zealand 2

[DocY]

Rory Best is Ireland's captain - he's allowed to ask a question of the ref is he not?

He is, but that doesn't mean he can't be penalised for back chat - less likely than another player, yes, but he can be.

Though thinking about it, we're hearing (and seeing) how much dissent there is at the top level, but when was the last time anyone saw it penalised? I honestly don't think I've seen a ref (in a televised game) do anything about back chat for a couple of seasons!

 

[Benny]

It's fair to say that Irish people are unhappy with the performance of the officials and yes I do believe they had an impact of the result of the game.

What were your thoughts on the Trimble one-handed knock-on that prevented a try at 12 minutes, the high tackle from Sexton at 13 minutes and the Smith yellow card at 16 minutes. Three unusual decisions/non-decisions in quick succession that could also have affected the result of the game

 

[FightOrFlight]

What were your thoughts on the Trimble one-handed knock-on that prevented a try at 12 minutes, the high tackle from Sexton at 13 minutes and the Smith yellow card at 16 minutes. Three unusual decisions/non-decisions in quick succession that could also have affected the result of the game

Trimble made enough of an attempt to play the ball for it to be deemed a simple attempted catch. The way you phrase it is indicative of the red herring phraseology used by fans and pundits for these incidents. The fact it's one handed matters not as you can catch with one hand. The key element is the fact he plays the ball upwards and not downwards which is the criteria set out when judging these incidents. He appeared to be trying to intercept and not simply bat it down.

The high tackle you refer to I assume is during the "try". Yeh my reaction was it was high however when you look at it Barrett is going down and sexton does manage to get to the ball and prevent the grounding seemingly. So while yes a question must be asked it is not a simple high shot and certainly not as blatant as the others.

The Smith yellow was plain and simple too many PKs in their own half and he was the man to get caught with the YC. Arguable the YC had no effect in behaviour change and should have been followed by more.

 

[Benny]

We must have been watching two different games. Trimble hit the ball down not up in my eyes. Sexton would surely have anticipated Barrett might dip a little, he was over the try line after all. Perhaps not as clear as the Fekitoa tackle but certainly clearer than the Cane one. He grabs the necks and goes to ground still holding on.

I wouldn't object to Smith being carded for repeat infringements but my question - and this is a genuine question as I'm not sure of what the ruling is - but what was he penalised for?

 

[FightOrFlight]

We must have been watching two different games. Trimble hit the ball down not up in my eyes. Sexton would surely have anticipated Barrett might dip a little, he was over the try line after all. Perhaps not as clear as the Fekitoa tackle but certainly clearer than the Cane one. He grabs the necks and goes to ground still holding on.

I wouldn't object to Smith being carded for repeat infringements but my question - and this is a genuine question as I'm not sure of what the ruling is - but what was he penalised for?

Clearly we were. If you want to say it was knocked down fair enough but none of the all blacks were too fussed even after the was replayed the screen in the stadium.

Sexton on is trying to prevent a try and s going for the ball. He is successful and didn't just try to behead Barrett and that's what saves ha I think. Canes tackles was the worst of the 3 as it was a premeditated shoulder to the head that left an opponent with a serious head injury.

Smith was PKed for being offside and then taking out the 9 which was incredibly cynical and one of a good few very cynical PKs the all blacks conceded in the few mins before and after.

 

[Cryath]

Gosh, What can we say about that..

I finally found a half decent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWVp8a86YuA
I hope it works for you.

Huge question marks on those high tackles - Cane is a red, and I would naturally go to yellow for Fekitoa but with the edict from World Rugby, then thats a red too.

We also add the knock on from Trimble (which I've seen yellows given for) but we also have a huge number of penalties from NZ and at important periods of the game as well. There was the Rob Kearney break when Jaco starts to give something and then stops (as it was borderline PT if given as taken early/side entry) and then a potential forward pass leading to the Fekitoa try. There was also the second penalty for Ireland where the NZ scrum exited stage left and Ireland would of had a free walk over the line? - any thoughts on that one?
(and I haven't gone near the Sexton high/try situation where I still haven't seen the right level of proof to give it).

The Yellow for the 9 in the first half is the tamest of the lot, for me and feels like it was given to placate people rather than driven by the thought to get an attitude change.

Any ideas on what the management strategy was to some of these situations from Jaco? and the TMO who seems to be watching another game..

I must admit, I was rather impressed at Rory Best at managing to keep it under control after some of the decisions.

EDIT: see also the thread on the kick going 10 - was that 10m

 

[Guyseep]

Gosh, What can we say about that..

I finally found a half decent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWVp8a86YuA
I hope it works for you.

Huge question marks on those high tackles - Cane is a red, and I would naturally go to yellow for Fekitoa but with the edict from World Rugby, then thats a red too.

I don't see how you can argue that Cane is a red card. We are to often guilty of looking at every at plays in super slow-mo and dissecting every minute movement of the player as though in that fraction of a second it was an intentional act. These tackles should be looked at in fullspeed.

If you watch the Cane tackle at full speed you'll see he made his initial move to engage the Irish player and the green player bounced off another NZ player and that changed his trajectory. A fraction of a second later Cane's arm makes contact with him and it is around the shoulder area. Unfortunately the Irish players head makes contact with Cane's shoulder. At full speed you can also see that Cane is making an effort to use his arms in the tackle, with initial contact being with his chest/shoulder.

It looks bad but I wouldn't card this at all. At most I would penalize it, but even that would be a stretch.

Here's an isolated version of the tackle

 

[Cryath]

I'm not sure how you can say that the arm in engaged in the tackle. At the point of impact his arm is behind him, not even along side him. Then contact is made between shoulder and head. The impact brings the arm forward more than his actions..or thats what i see.

That surely is the only fact we need in this case? matched with the edict:
http://worldrugby.matchdaymail.com/index.php?action=social&c=dc6a6489640ca02b0d42dabeb8e46bb7.483

I would compare it to: http://www.rugbydump.com/2016/11/5440/mat-luamanus-brutal-tackle-gets-him-a-five-week-ban
I understand the mitigation that he had bounced off another player and it's not at the pace of the above..but the contact is shoulder vs head.

I have also just found this:
[FONT=&quot]"World Rugby's number-one priority is player welfare and the laws of the game clearly state that the necks and heads of players are sacrosanct," explained World Rugby Match Officials Selection Committee Chairman, Anthony Buchana.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"When it comes to foul play, the game is cleaner now than ever before but referees must constantly be alert to head-high hits."[/FONT]

 

[FightOrFlight]

I don't see how you can argue that Cane is a red card. We are to often guilty of looking at every at plays in super slow-mo and dissecting every minute movement of the player as though in that fraction of a second it was an intentional act. These tackles should be looked at in fullspeed.

If you watch the Cane tackle at full speed you'll see he made his initial move to engage the Irish player and the green player bounced off another NZ player and that changed his trajectory. A fraction of a second later Cane's arm makes contact with him and it is around the shoulder area. Unfortunately the Irish players head makes contact with Cane's shoulder. At full speed you can also see that Cane is making an effort to use his arms in the tackle, with initial contact being with his chest/shoulder.

It looks bad but I wouldn't card this at all. At most I would penalize it, but even that would be a stretch.

Here's an isolated version of the tackle

World Rugby position as clarified is very clear on this. I got the brief last week on it last week from our guys. If you strike the head of an opponent then you will receive a red card. Cane leads with the shoulder and he leads into an area he knows there's likely to be a head. It's dangerous play and must be red. It was put to us starkly really and so let me lay it similarly starkly and if it had unfolded slightly differently:

Cane hits Henshaw and he goes down. Jaco blows it up and the Irish medics are on. Suddenly the team doctor waves his hands frantically above his head and gives a signal we don't usually see(thank god). The signal for the defibrillator because Henshaw has swallowed his tounge and isn't breathing. You now have a player in cardiac arrest on the pitch live on TV for the world to see. Camera cuts away but still they're trying to resuscitate him. After a spectacle like that do you think mothers will let their sons and daughters out to play the game?
World rugby owes it to the game as a whole to make sure players are fully aware that if you put a head, leg knee or shoulder out there deliberately and it strikes an opponent then you're in serious danger of going off.
As we were told at a seminar once a drunk driver doesn't intend to kill anyone but you can't claim that as a defence when you're on trial.

 

[Benny]

Gosh, What can we say about that..

(and I haven't gone near the Sexton high/try situation where I still haven't seen the right level of proof to give it).

and then a potential forward pass leading to the Fekitoa try

Here’s the Sexton tackle if you want to decide for yourself
https://youtu.be/HBHiZOwum0o?t=21m4s

If the Fekitoa one was referred, could you really say it was clear and obviously forward? Looks flat to me. Even ignoring momentum, Fekitoa is behind TJP
https://youtu.be/HBHiZOwum0o?t=1h25m42s

 

[Cryath]

thats the best video i've seen of the Sexton situation and I'm not sure there is a clear try (ignoring the high tackle for now). The white tape on Barretts hand confuses things a little if you are looking for the white of the ball. I don't see the ground that was 'obvious' to the TMO.

Then you add the question of 'penalty try'? (for me anyway)

For the forward pass option - the ball is passed a yard short of the cut of the grass, and Fekitoa takes it almost on the cut of the grass..Thats the only guide I have to say it's forward..So it's how much do you trust the grounds keepers perhaps.

My difficulty is this game is full of 'on the edge' decisions. (which of course..law 6.a.4.a)

 

[OB..]

For the forward pass option - the ball is passed a yard short of the cut of the grass, and Fekitoa takes it almost on the cut of the grass.

You are judging the path of the ball over the ground, but that is not the correct criterion. In terms of physics the test is whether or not the passer added to the forward speed of the ball (initially the ball had the same forward speed as the passer). This is often expressed as asking if his hands went backwards in relation to his body.

 

[DocY]

Having watched the highlights, my take:

What was Barrett doing?! He should give his player of the year award to Dane Coles after that.

But back to the point - a clear and obvious high tackle from Sexton. Not a card, but definitely a high tackle, so a PT if the ball wasn't grounded, and I think it probably was (only seen one angle) - Sexton's arm was in the way of the view of it touching the ground, but there's no way it was underneath the ball.

And the final try - my thoughts (in real time) were "hmmm... was that forward?", but even with the replays I couldn't say it was clearly and obviously a forward pass.

 

[Dickie E]

Aaron Smith's YC was very harsh. Not even sure what the offence was - offside?

 

[Dickie E]

For the forward pass option - the ball is passed a yard short of the cut of the grass, and Fekitoa takes it almost on the cut of the grass..Thats the only guide I have to say it's forward..So it's how much do you trust the grounds keepers perhaps.

worth a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMlDy2jP9s

 

[Dickie E]

http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/search?updated-max=2016-11-21T21:29:00Z&max-results=1

 

[Drift]

The high tackle you refer to I assume is during the "try". Yeh my reaction was it was high however when you look at it Barrett is going down and sexton does manage to get to the ball and prevent the grounding seemingly. So while yes a question must be asked it is not a simple high shot and certainly not as blatant as the others.

Interesting you say that, that's how I judged the Cane tackle. Ball carrier was going down already and Cane hit him which would have been a chest on chest tackle but was shoulder on shoulder which slid up to head.

 

[Drift]

Rory Best is Ireland's captain - he's allowed to ask a question of the ref is he not?

He is, however walking out nearly 30m to talk to Jaco looked petulant IMO.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Having watched the highlights, my take:

What was Barrett doing?! He should give his player of the year award to Dane Coles after that.

But back to the point - a clear and obvious high tackle from Sexton. Not a card, but definitely a high tackle, so a PT if the ball wasn't grounded, and I think it probably was (only seen one angle) - Sexton's arm was in the way of the view of it touching the ground, but there's no way it was underneath the ball.

Quite right. His arm would have been visible either from both camera angles, or from neither angle if it had been.

To be grounded, a carried ball only has to touch a blade of grass - no downward pressure is required. Any suggestion that the ball did not touch any blade of grass is plain ludicrous.

And the final try - my thoughts (in real time) were "hmmm... was that forward?", but even with the replays I couldn't say it was clearly and obviously a forward pass.

As OB points out, lines on the grass are irrelevant to Law 12. Its the direction the ball is thrown that matters (it took some of us a long time to convince people of this).

In this case, you need to be aware of where the ball was when Perenara released it. He was running, he stretched a long way forward and threw it around the back of an Irish defender...

I don't think this throw was anywhere near forward, not even flat. If it was thrown forward with the added momentum to his own, then Fekitoa would have had to stretch forward to catch it. In fact, he checked his stride and shuffled sideways to wait for it... and that is a good indication that it wasn't thrown forward.

 

[Dickie E]

And the final try - my thoughts (in real time) were "hmmm... was that forward?", but even with the replays I couldn't say it was clearly and obviously a forward pass.

Always be wary when the passer is stopped in his tracks immediately after the pass - it tends to make the pass look forward due to momentum. Look at the video and imagine the passer has continued unimpeded.