Ireland v New Zealand 2

[Decorily]

https://youtu.be/HBHiZOwum0o?t=1236

Strange decision to award a try?

For me grounding inconclusive......

Penalty try anyone for Sextons high tackle in preventing grounding?

No mention of neck contact....am I seeing things differently to everyone else?

 

[Phil E]

As stated by Ian in another thread, from the angle you see on your link it looks like he didn't ground it, but from the reverse angle you can clearly see the ball touch the ground.

For me, Yes it would have been a PT for the high tackle anyway.

 

[OB..]

Was anybody else irritated by the Irish commentators? Too often talking unnecessarily, and too much "I know better" criticism of the officials.

 

[winchesterref]

Was anybody else irritated by the Irish commentators? Too often talking unnecessarily, and too much "I know better" criticism of the officials.

They were awful, I muted them.

 

[Ian_Cook]

https://youtu.be/HBHiZOwum0o?t=1236

Strange decision to award a try?

For me grounding inconclusive......

Penalty try anyone for Sextons high tackle in preventing grounding?

No mention of neck contact....am I seeing things differently to everyone else?

It doesn't look grounded from this angle...

... Sexton's arm appears to be under the ball.

However, from this angle, the grounding is clear. (that is part of the green stripe on the ball touching the ground).

Sexton's arm is obviously not under the ball the way it appeared to be from the other side.

 

[Decorily]

It doesn't look grounded from this angle...


Only clear through Black tinted glasses Ian!!

However, from this angle, the grounding is clear. (that is part of the green stripe on the ball touching the ground).

 

[Decorily]

Layout of above post changed after I posted.

"Only clear through Black tinted glasses Ian" is my comment.

 

[Cross]

The second gif is anything but clear to me.
I won't argue it was a high tackle anyway, but if we judge the play on its own (i.e. disregarding impact of decision on result) i don't see a clear grounding.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

For me, Yes it would have been a PT for the high tackle anyway.

Just for fun, a tackle can only take place in FoP. This occurred in in-goal

 

[The Fat]

Just for fun, a tackle can only take place in FoP. This occurred in in-goal

Haha.
True, but then technically, a player who goes around the head of a ball carrier, in the FoP, but doesn't bring him to ground cannot be guilty of a dangerous tackle because no tackle has occurred.

 

[Drift]

Did anyone else really hate the fact that Rory Best walked out nearly 30m to try and get Jaco to go to the TMO? Stuff like that keeps creeping into the game and it looks awful, sort of takes away the respect for the referee that is ingrained in rugby.

 

[Deafbok]

Nobody going to make mention of what looked like a forward pass from the base of the scrum leading to that try?

 

[Pegleg]

Haha.
True, but then technically, a player who goes around the head of a ball carrier, in the FoP, but doesn't bring him to ground cannot be guilty of a dangerous tackle because no tackle has occurred.

You illustrate very well the problem when people get "detailed" about stuff. It's the same when pundits start talking about tip tackles an the like.

The game needs to get away from some of such examples of pigeon-holing things. Dangerous play covers this type of "tackle".

(I know you were not being serious by the way)

 

[FightOrFlight]

It's fair to say that Irish people are unhappy with the performance of the officials and yes I do believe they had an impact of the result of the game.

As I suppose is natural the blame goes to the top man Jaco however he was badly let down by his TMO and I think he knew it too. The process surrounding the Barrett try stank. Jaco asked about the grounding and the TMO immediately on one full speed viewing announced "yes he grounded it". Jaco quite rightly challenges this assertion but the TMO states he sees "clear grounding". Now I've seen several slow mo replays and freeze frames and even then it's inconclusive. Given the question asked and the process laid down it has to be no try.

The biggest talking point for me is that given the recent directives from WR on head contact Jaco failed to apply the criteria set out and for me failed to issue what were WR mandated RCs to Cane and Fekitoa. Cane leads with the shoulder to Henshaws head and the arm follows by the dynamics of contact however the arm was not presented and what resulted was an extremely dangerous deliberate action into contact by Cane. The TMOs assertion that it was shoulder on shoulder and Jacos agreement was just bizarre and perhaps and indicator of two guys who did not want to make a big call.
The Fekitoa tackle on Zebo is a case of a clearly high tackle with the arm used in a striking action always in the region of the head. Again i throw most of the blame with the TMO who once he saw the tackle and heard Jaco and the AR say yellow should have called "check check" and showed Jaco the tackle on the screen as most RC criteria were clearly met.

On the issue of Rory Best approaching Jaco about the forward pass I think we need to be realistic and pragmatic. Ireland will have a team of guys with laptops looking at replays and they would have been feeding details of the referees errors on to him. There was likely an element of frustration and how the game was unfolding and at how the try was scored by a guy who Ireland would feel should not have been on park. The game and all the controversy was very well summed up in this exchange when Jaco says "Rory I have a team of people who look after me". The problem was that in the day they didn't do that and they let him down badly.

 

[DocY]

Ireland will have a team of guys with laptops looking at replays and they would have been feeding details of the referees errors on to him.

How would they do this? He wouldn't have an ear piece in and if a water boy has come on and told him to ask for the TMO, as captain, he should know better.

And I'd hope a team of analysts would also be able to analyse the number of times a ref changes their mind when a player argues with him. That really wouldn't take long!

It's the players who need to be pragmatic and realistic. They should know that the referee isn't going to change his mind and that the best that can happen in this situation is nothing - and they're running the risk of restarting play with a penalty!

 

[crossref]

How would they do this? He wouldn't have an ear piece in and if a water boy has come on and told him to ask for the TMO, as captain, he should know better.

And I'd hope a team of analysts would also be able to analyse the number of times a ref changes their mind when a player argues with him. That really wouldn't take long!

tbf, Best didn't ask him to change his mind, he asked him for a TMO review.

Now we have TMO reviews so often, both at the request of the referee, and unprompted from the TMO, I think the time has come to let the teams themselves also request a TMO review. There could a system like tennis, you could be allowed (say) one challenge in each half, and if your challenge is correct, it doesn't count

 

[FightOrFlight]

How would they do this? He wouldn't have an ear piece in and if a water boy has come on and told him to ask for the TMO, as captain, he should know better.

And I'd hope a team of analysts would also be able to analyse the number of times a ref changes their mind when a player argues with him. That really wouldn't take long!

It's the players who need to be pragmatic and realistic. They should know that the referee isn't going to change his mind and that the best that can happen in this situation is nothing - and they're running the risk of restarting play with a penalty!

The waterboy in the pro game isn't just a rubbish player. They are usually highly qualified coaches who constantly feet tactical info to individuals and often point out to captains areas of inconsistency or areas the opposition infringe to raise with the referee. Doubtless they would have been telling Best that there were errors going on as they happened in the game and likely that Jaco was under pressure and was aware of some of them. Pro rugby is not the gents game people pretend it is. It's far more technically cynical.

In the pro game referees will often go to the TMO if asked as they fear missing something big. In this case it was a try that could be the winning and losing of the game.
To say the ref will restart with a penalty in a game like this is a little naive. In a 3rda game maybe but in a 1st game or pro game a PK on half way is as good as 3 points in a lot of cases. Big call from the ref and unlikely to be pulled out unless it's serious dissent.

 

[DocY]

The waterboy in the pro game isn't just a rubbish player. They are usually highly qualified coaches who constantly feet tactical info to individuals and often point out to captains areas of inconsistency or areas the opposition infringe to raise with the referee. Doubtless they would have been telling Best that there were errors going on as they happened in the game and likely that Jaco was under pressure and was aware of some of them. Pro rugby is not the gents game people pretend it is. It's far more technically cynical.

In the pro game referees will often go to the TMO if asked as they fear missing something big. In this case it was a try that could be the winning and losing of the game.
To say the ref will restart with a penalty in a game like this is a little naive. In a 3rda game maybe but in a 1st game or pro game a PK on half way is as good as 3 points in a lot of cases. Big call from the ref and unlikely to be pulled out unless it's serious dissent.

I realise the nature of top-level waterboys and have no problem with what you describe - only this particular situation (though I didn't see it - I'm just basing my opinion on Drift's description). I don't recall any situation where the ref has gone to the TMO in an international at the behest of the players - though I'm happy (well, willing) to be corrected.

My point about the penalty restart is to illustrate the risk - no, you're not likely to see it, but you're giving the referee the option for very little (or no) benefit. To me, that's not worth the risk.

IMO (as a Welshman) this should happen next time Dan Biggar starts whining.

 

[FightOrFlight]

I realise the nature of top-level waterboys and have no problem with what you describe - only this particular situation (though I didn't see it - I'm just basing my opinion on Drift's description). I don't recall any situation where the ref has gone to the TMO in an international at the behest of the players - though I'm happy (well, willing) to be corrected..

Sexton bouces up to his feet after tackling Barrett and implores the ref to check when Jaco seems happy enough to raise the hand. Just one example. If you look at a lot of foul play situations at rucks often the ref only checks because a player says it to him. You often hear "we've an allegation of a stamp" etc when he asks the TMO.

 

[irishref]

Rory Best is Ireland's captain - he's allowed to ask a question of the ref is he not?

I'll let the citing process deal with what many perceive to be dangerous tackles - Sexton should have joined them imho - but O was a bit perplexed at JP's handling of the breakdown. Time and time again NZ flooded the tackle area with bodies on the ground and their tacklers were very tardy to release, thus giving their jackler a better chance of attacking the ball.

I also thought there was a case for earlier - and perhaps more - yellows for repeated infringements. Case in point - after the first yellow, Ireland had a scrum that they were pushing towards the NZ try line. The NZ back row stand up and contest the ball that is still at the feet of Ireland's #8. A pk was correctly given but since NZ had already received a yellow after a general warning, this should have been the next. Perhaps a penalty try as well.

But having said that, NZ thoroughly deserved their win - well done - and Ireland's woeful attacking and decision-making meant they deserved to lose.