Is it a maul or a tackle that hasn't been completed yet?

[Guyseep]

Had this happen in a U18 game today.

Coming out of a ruck Red 5 picks and goes. Red 6 is bound onto his teammate in the hammer position. As Red 5 makes contact with Blue 7, the two Red players drive on. Blue 7 tackles Red 5 and brings him to ground. This all happens in essentially one motion. More Blue players arrive at the tackle and bind on Red 6 (the hammer). It becomes unplayable pretty quickly and I could not see the ball, so I wasn't sure if it was on the ground or not.

I blow it up award a scrum to Red. After the game I had a discussion with the Blue coach and he felt that it was a collapsed maul as the moment the two Red players make contact with the Blue tackler, a maul is formed.

Would you call it a collapsed maul and turnover ball if you can see the ball hasn't made it to ground?
The nature of it happening so fast and one motion makes it difficult to call.

Thoughts?

 

[Dickie E]

After the game I had a discussion with the Blue coach and he felt that it was a collapsed maul as the moment the two Red players make contact with the Blue tackler, a maul is formed.

No, "contact" is not the same thing as "binding". If it was the ball carrying team could turn every tackle into an illegally collapsed maul simply by running in a 2 man pod.

What you need to do is observe the contact, count to 3 to see if a tackle occurs, then call "maul" if players are still on their feet.

Of interest too in this hammer move is to keep an eye on red #6. Has he attempted to stay on his feet or has he flopped over red #5, ostensibly going to ground as part of momentum but really just looking to seal off the ball.

 

[Guyseep]

I think the coach was implying that when Blue grabbed Red to tackle him, it was essentially a bind and a maul had formed. I see his point, but I like your idea of waiting a moment to see if a tackle occurs or if the ball carrier is held up.

 

[Jacko]

Doesn't matter which way you rule as long as you communicate very clearly so the players are in not doubt as to their obligations. If you are going to referee it is a maul, say "maul". If you think it is a tackle, say "tackle only" with a possible follow up of "Blue number 7 roll away".

This is one of the occasions where even at the top level the players need guidance as it is such a dynamic situation with a difficult to determine change of phase.

 

[crossref]

Had this happen in a U18 game today.

Coming out of a ruck Red 5 picks and goes. Red 6 is bound onto his teammate in the hammer position. As Red 5 makes contact with Blue 7, the two Red players drive on. Blue 7 tackles Red 5 and brings him to ground. This all happens in essentially one motion. More Blue players arrive at the tackle and bind on Red 6 (the hammer). It becomes unplayable pretty quickly and I could not see the ball,s?

yo make it sound like a tackle -- so then did players release and roll away.

 

[ChrisR]

Guyseep, you got it right.

Binding on the BC prior to contact does not make an instant maul.

The ball carrier can still be tackled If the BC is not immediately brought to ground then a maul has formed.

How long is immediate? Your call.

 

[OB..]

Grabbing the player above the hips constitutes binding and will form a maul. Grabbing him below the hips is a tackle attempt.

 

[ChrisR]

Do you have a Law or clarification/amendment reference. I looked but couldn't find it.

Agree that this definition helps make the distinction.

Personally, I have issues pre-contact binding. Smacks of 'flying wedge' tho doesn't pass the test for such.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you have a Law or clarification/amendment reference. I looked but couldn't find it.

Agree that this definition helps make the distinction.

Personally, I have issues pre-contact binding. Smacks of 'flying wedge' tho doesn't pass the test for such.

 

[Davet]

OB is correct. It is described I'm a Law clarification relating to sacking the catcher at a lineout - nut the principle us sound and exactly as he describes.

 

[Dickie E]

OB is correct. It is described I'm a Law clarification relating to sacking the catcher at a lineout - nut the principle us sound and exactly as he describes.

That's nonsense. If you & OB.. were correct a 2 man pod couldn't be legally tackled except around the legs. A sack is a specific phase and inference shouldn't be drawn elsewhere. Let's have a look at this clarification.

 

[Camquin]

I would say if an attacker pre-binds and a defender tries to stop them we automatically get a maul - even if it only lasts a fraction of a second.

This is how I was drilled in rolling mauls - two player break off a maul and set up fresh maul.

As it is a maul if the ball carrier goes to ground they have to make the ball available immediately or they lose the ball.
This is harsher than for a tackle as it is harder to stop two people than one.

A pod of three is a flying wedge and is illegal.

Camquin

 

[The Fat]

In relation to the binding of the hammer pre-contact with defender, one could argue that the definition of a maul is, "when the ball carrier is "held" by one or more opponents and one or more of the ball carrier's team mates bind on the ball carrier". It could be interpreted that the contact comes first and then the ball carriers team mate/mates "bind" on the ball carrier to initiate the maul. Nowhere does it mention the defenders binding, only holding (binding becomes the requirement for players joining once the maul is formed).
IMO, if the BC & hammer come into contact with a defender and they go straight to ground, we have a tackle. If the defender manages to hold the BC upright for a few seconds, then we can call "maul".

In the OP, it is clear that the blue coach wanted it to be called a maul that ends unsuccessfully and therefore is a scrum turnover to his team. I would counter that arguement by saying that if it was immediately a maul, then his blue defender intentionally collapsed said maul and it would result in a PK to red.

 

[Dickie E]

I would say if an attacker pre-binds and a defender tries to stop them we automatically get a maul - even if it only lasts a fraction of a second.

So if my ball carrying team mate is in the process of being tackled all I have to do is grasp his jumper and I win a PK for opponent collapsing a maul?