Is this a Red?

beckett50


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 31, 2004
Messages
2,514
Post Likes
224
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Didn't think it was at the time and still don't.

The Daily Mail article is full of inaccuracies and hyperbowl.

Why should Lawes apologise for a perfectly legal tackle? It was reviewed at the time by NO and the French have, as I understand it, had their application to cite Courtney for challenge turned down.
 

WombleRef


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
364
Post Likes
33
Current Referee grade:
Level 9
Didn't think it was at the time and still don't.

The Daily Mail article is full of inaccuracies and hyperbowl.

Why should Lawes apologise for a perfectly legal tackle? It was reviewed at the time by NO and the French have, as I understand it, had their application to cite Courtney for challenge turned down.

The Daily Mail article is useless - I only posted it because that was what started the debate with a couple of people on Facebook.

So are you saying that a borderline high tackle that resulted in the player's head uncontrollably hitting the deck while it had dropped below the hips is a safe and legal tackle?
 

beckett50


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 31, 2004
Messages
2,514
Post Likes
224
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
It wasn't a high tackle - not that the Laws refer to high tackle - and it wasn't dangerous.

The fact that the player wasn't expecting it so wasn't braced made it look worse.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,068
Post Likes
1,798
It's not high.

It's not late.

It's not a lifted tackle.

It's international rugby.

It's history.

didds
 

WombleRef


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
364
Post Likes
33
Current Referee grade:
Level 9
It wasn't a high tackle - not that the Laws refer to high tackle - and it wasn't dangerous.

The fact that the player wasn't expecting it so wasn't braced made it look worse.

The definitions do:
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent’s neck or head is [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]dangerous play[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular].

[/FONT]
http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?highlight=Dangerous%20play&domain=9&guideline=3

In this instance it is not a high tackle although I reckon if I had been refereeing it without the use of a TMO I would instinctively blow my whistle for something.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
In this instance it is not a high tackle although I reckon if I had been refereeing it without the use of a TMO I would instinctively blow my whistle for something.
Injury?
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...parents-discouraging-children-play-rugby.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3QDOWk1qIo

To me it's a red. Not because it's late but to me it seems dangerous - What do you guys think?

Its unreasonable to expect a player to withdraw from his commitment to tackling, a fraction of a second after a BC releases the ball.

Its a judgement call, and we all see it differently, I'm glad the citing got chucked out, and everyone knows my low tolerance for deliberate foul play.
 

RobLev

Rugby Expert
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
2,170
Post Likes
244
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade

damo


Referees in New Zealand
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
1,692
Post Likes
276
This is the tackle that has caused all the fuss? :shrug:

Nothing wrong with it in the slightest.
 

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
9,367
Post Likes
1,469
In no rugby universe that I want to be part of is that a PK, let alone a red.
 

Not Kurt Weaver


Referees in America
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
2,285
Post Likes
159
Ok boys, my bs meter is pegged.

1. It is truly a shame for rugby that Lawes remained on the park. The Frogmen should have immediately wore him out without regard for citation.

2. It is not a tackle, a tackle requires a ball carrier. It is a late attempt at a tackle.

3. Just as he is "commited" to the tackle, Lawes can also "commit himself to tackle a player with the ball. Not sure being "commited" to the tackle is mentioned in law.

4. Simply late tackle, PK only. The French should have dealt with Lawes on their own expeditiously.

5. Remember boys, tackles like that are why most of us are reffing and not playing. Cause we couldn't dish it out or handle it. let's not pretend to accept it, when we could quickly be on the blame line in a court room.

BS from you all, cept the OP
 

RobLev

Rugby Expert
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
2,170
Post Likes
244
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Ok boys, my bs meter is pegged.

1. It is truly a shame for rugby that Lawes remained on the park. The Frogmen should have immediately wore him out without regard for citation.

2. It is not a tackle, a tackle requires a ball carrier. It is a late attempt at a tackle.

3. Just as he is "commited" to the tackle, Lawes can also "commit himself to tackle a player with the ball. Not sure being "commited" to the tackle is mentioned in law.

4. Simply late tackle, PK only. The French should have dealt with Lawes on their own expeditiously.

5. Remember boys, tackles like that are why most of us are reffing and not playing. Cause we couldn't dish it out or handle it. let's not pretend to accept it, when we could quickly be on the blame line in a court room.

BS from you all, cept the OP

OK, young man:

1. We ignore 10.4(i)?

2. We have a ball-carrier - Plisson - when the tackle is commenced.

3. When he commenced the tackle, Plisson had the ball; is Lawes required not to commence a tackle because the ball-carrier might pass the ball? To put it another way; in your view, buying a dummy is compulsory in case it isn't a dummy?

4. Again; you baulk at a tackle that commences before the pass but arrives after the pass, but have no problem with retaliation that injures the victim to the extent he is unable to take further part in the game?

5. Court room? This wouldn't get near a court room - it's not even foul play, let alone foul play that is actionable.
 
Last edited:

Not Kurt Weaver


Referees in America
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
2,285
Post Likes
159
OK, young man:

1. We ignore 10.4(i)? , not sure how this applies

2. We have a ball-carrier - Plisson - when the tackle is commenced. , ball is away before contact

3. When he commenced the tackle, Plisson had the ball; is Lawes required not to commence a tackle because the ball-carrier might pass the ball? To put it another way; in your view, buying a dummy is compulsory in case it isn't a dummy? part of this athletic event is controling one's body and by law tackling those with a ball, dummy or not you can only tackle a player with the ball

4. Again; you baulk at a tackle that commences before the pass but arrives after the pass, but have no problem with retaliation that injures the victim to the extent he is unable to take further part in the game? Retaliation must be punished, but this tackle needed a response to defend one's teammate the cost for the frogs should not have been a factor. Kinda how goons are used in ice hockey

5. Court room? This wouldn't get near a court room - it's not even foul play, let alone foul play that is actionable.
I agree this alone would not, but it establishes a standard of neglect for future incidents as a review of incompetence
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
NKW, you live in the most litigious society in the world; one where blame must be apportioned for everything, and someone has to pay for it when bad things happen. This shows through in your posts to this thread. You need to understand that Rugby Union is a contact/collision sport, and in these types of sports sometimes bad things happen to players and they get hurt without anyone being to blame.

Lawes' tackle was legal under the Laws as they are now. If referees were to routinely PK a tackle as marginally late as this one. ball Carriers would be able to buy a PK just by making sure they offload the ball as they are about to be tackled. The game would become a farce.
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
To me it's a red. Not because it's late but to me it seems dangerous
"seems dangerous" needs to be linked to some kind of infringement. Perfectly legal play can lead to serious injury.
 

irishref


Referees in Holland
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
978
Post Likes
63
All of my injuries as a player came from legal "actions". Broken bones, knee surgery and lots of cuts & bruises.

It's a very physical game and the human body - especially the amateur one - will suffer.
 

The Fat


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
4,204
Post Likes
496
I agree this alone would not, but it establishes a standard of neglect for future incidents as a review of incompetence

Had an interesting one today.
Local game that would be about L5 or 6 in the Old Dart.

6 blue had been warned for a late tackle and then YCed for a high tackle in the 1st half. 2nd half and there is a bit of push and shove following a ruck and 6 blue throws a haymaker right uppercut that misses by the thickness of a cigarette paper. Unseen by both referee and AR.
Fellow to my left (we are spectators), says "That has to be a YC and therefore a RC for the thrown punch".
I reply, "When it goes to the judiciary, what offence will be written on the ref's report?"
He says, "Striking".
I respond with, "But he missed. Are you giving him the YC for throwing a punch that did not connect or are you giving him the YC because he's shit at landing punches? What offence has been committed?"

You can't send a player off for an attempted stamp that misses by half a yard, or an attempted stiff arm tackle that the ball carrier ducks under or a swing and a miss. You can give the player a serious bullocking and perhaps, at a stretch if he tries and misses again, escalate to a PK under 10.4(m) so he knows he is on borrowed time. Obviously if he keeps up with the crap you may even get to YC/YCs.

From past posts, I know there will be people on here who completely disagree with what I have just said.

If the Courtney Lawes tackle was legitimate, do you think it would hold water at the judiciary if your ref's report said, "Although technically legal, I thought it could lead to ill-disciplined play by others later in the game and therefore I sent the player from the field".
 

Browner

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
6,000
Post Likes
270
6 blue had been warned for a late tackle and then YCed for a high tackle in the 1st half. 2nd half and there is a bit of push and shove following a ruck and 6 blue throws a haymaker right uppercut that misses by the thickness of a cigarette paper. Unseen by both referee and AR.
Fellow to my left (we are spectators), says "That has to be a YC and therefore a RC for the thrown punch".
I reply, "When it goes to the judiciary, what offence will be written on the ref's report?"
He says, "Striking".
I respond with, "But he missed. Are you giving him the YC for throwing a punch that did not connect or are you giving him the YC because he's shit at landing punches? What offence has been committed?"

You can't send a player off for an attempted stamp that misses by half a yard, or an attempted stiff arm tackle that the ball carrier ducks under or a swing and a miss. You can give the player a serious bullocking and perhaps, at a stretch if he tries and misses again, escalate to a PK under 10.4(m) so he knows he is on borrowed time. Obviously if he keeps up with the crap you may even get to YC/YCs.

From past posts, I know there will be people on here who completely disagree with what I have just said..

It is a legitimate argument ....that the mistimed haymaker was 10.4(m) unsportsmanlike , and some refs would use it, I can see why spectators would see it as offending, (as described) its not exactly a good look from the stands, & maybe the intent to injure is enough to tip the balance on your annecdote.?!?
 
Top