Is this a ruck

[harlequins1970]

I know this might come across as a silly question but could someone clarify as to whether the following is a ruck. A tackle takes place both players go to ground (no problems) the ball carriers team mate comes through the gate and over the top of the players on the ground before making contact with the incoming opposition but not over the players or ball on the ground leaving them just behind them. I know the laws of the ruck states close to the ball or on feet in physical contact with oppo but how close is close or would you class this as as anything else i.e sealing off or even obsruction.

 

[Phil E]

The laws of the game do not give a definition of "close", but they do give a definition of "near". I would go with that.

[LAWS]Definitions
N
Near:Within one metre.[/LAWS]

 

[Davet]

Except that ruck requires players to be "over" the ball, not merely "near", or "close".

I other words a ruck is not formed by engaging an opponent when the ball is behind the place of engagement.

This is technically two offences; obstruction, and playing a player without the ball.

But in real life it depends on the judgement of the ref. If any part of the hindmost player is still over the ball we have a ruck, and you would do best to call it as such out loud - if not then again call it -in this case simply "Play on!" should be sufficient (and is in line with iRB recommendations).

If you felt that the player went beyond and in front of the ball deliberately in order to prevent an opponent playing it (rather than perhaps mere enthusiasm) then you may well decide to ping for obstruction.

Use judgement - and manage the situation.

 

[harlequins1970]

But in real life it depends on the judgement of the ref. If any part of the hindmost player is still over the ball we have a ruck, and you would do best to call it as such out loud - if not then again call it -in this case simply "Play on!" should be sufficient (and is in line with iRB recommendations).

thanks Davet,

its just that you often see this happening and don't know whether its a ruck or not. Now I have some sort of guideline too look for. just to clarify that if engagement is made beyond the ball then NO RUCK but if, say a foot of either player in contact is over tha ball then we have a RUCK.

 

[Davet]

I'd go with that.

 

[Taff]

.... its just that you often see this happening and don't know whether its a ruck or not. Now I have some sort of guideline too look for. just to clarify that if engagement is made beyond the ball then NO RUCK but if, say a foot of either player in contact is over tha ball then we have a RUCK.

From reading your post H1970 it suggests that you may be unsure when the ball is still in the ruck. A brilliant way to work it out is if you imagine looking vertically down onto the players on their feet and then imagine a massive rubber band around them. If the ball is inside the "rubber band" its in the ruck; if it's outside then it's out.

Works for scrums too.

 

[harlequins1970]

thanks Taff,

The problem was not with when the ball is in or out of the ruck it was to do with what constitutes a ruck. As per my first post sometimes you see contact between two sets of players after a tackle but sometimes this is not over the ball but might be ahead of it i.e an oppo goes in quickly on another player by overstepping the tackled player and tackler on the ground then engaging, come to think of it it is probably taking the contest for the ball away from one side but you don't often see it getting pinged so is it part of the game as just protecting the ball rather than a ruck being formed and it is still in the tackle phase.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Womble]

If you wish to referee strictly to the law then yes it is obstruction, If you wish to referee "the game" then its a ruck! I tend to allow players to go about a metre beyond the ball before I even think about obstruction and then only ping the obvious ones... Judgement call I know but it works for me.....

 

[OB..]

Judgement call I know but it works for me.....

Apparently it also works for your Match Observers and Coaches.

However I am not keen on it. I think most players at my level see it as obstruction and it becomes a flash point.

 

[Womble]

Its more to do with creating quick ball with an offside line to work with OB, A player who as the OP states has come through the gate has momentum and IMO if he gets there first he should be rewarded! Otherwise he stops and then gets boshed off the ball! Where is the reward in that?

 

[didds]

if he has that much time maybe he should be picking the bloody thing up!

didds

 

[OB..]

Its more to do with creating quick ball with an offside line to work with OB, A player who as the OP states has come through the gate has momentum and IMO if he gets there first he should be rewarded! Otherwise he stops and then gets boshed off the ball! Where is the reward in that?

I think it is to do with timing. At your level, players from opposite sides tend to arrive at about the same time. How often do you get someone who is able to drive past the ball with no opposition? At my levels they don't drive in so hard and the whole thing is much slower. If a player deliberately goes past the ball and just stands there, it is usually obstruction, and not because he was moving too fast to stop.

 

[damo]

Is this the sort of thing you mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r4BH06nsG4

Conrad plays a man who is at least a metre from the ball, and hangs onto him and just stands there. I think its OK here, just, but its borderline.

On the plus side it does allow the generation of really quick ball

 

[Davet]

Womble, are you saying you would set offside lines, as if it were a ruck, even though the ball is not in the ruck-like thing?

 

[harlequins1970]

In Damos' clip that is exactly what my first post was trying to describe. Is this a ruck or part of the tackle process because as you can see the tacklers teamate does not really get the chance to compete for the ball as the NZ player is already over the tackle area and the oppo set themselves up behind the hindmost foot. I do not see how this can be a ruck but how do referees view this. If another team mate of the tacklers came through the gate would he get pinged for not binding on to somebody if there was no one there to bind onto

 

[Davet]

In Damo's clip I think we would all treat that as a ruck - at least to start with - but once the ball is out you can see the opposition start to think about coming forward, and the ref calls them back - which helps the game flow, but to the detriment of the opposition who cannot get t grips earl enough with the play to prevent the resulting try. Whilst less entertaining, it would have been fairer to let them go once the ball was clearly out.

 

[Womble]

You answered your own question Dave !

 

[Davet]

Not quite - would you have enforced it as a ruck after the ball was clearly out - as happened in the clip, or would you have gone with "Play on" at that point (as I would)?

 

[Womble]

Play on, however the ruck produced an offside line so defenders would have to come from onside to play

 

[Davet]

Womble - agreed.