Joubert

The Fat


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Now before any of our Kiwi cousins get their knickers in a twist, let me just say that it is clear that the ABs have been by far the best team in the world over the last 4 years, were the only team not to lose a game in this RWC and so thoroughly deserved their win and that after all they have endured as a small nation this year, they really needed this win for the good of the country. They also seem to have done an outstanding job of hosting the tournament so well done NZ and congratulations.

Getting back to the topic of CJ's performance I must say I was a bit disappointed. I have been one of his biggest fans for the past two years but there were times in the final where he was MIA. I agree 100% with a previous comment that had he awarded a couple of PKs late in the game, he would have been inconsistant as he had let the same things go all night. Had he reffed RMC the way he did Pocock last week, Richie would have been in the bin. The ABs were very good at having players hinder French chasers on the kicks as well and they got away with it. I thought that many of the areas that CJ is normally red hot on were very "relaxed" and I wonder if the mentality of trying to let the game flow because it was the final may have been a reason. We all saw how that backfired for BL in the Aus v SA free for all. It will be interesting to see CJs stats from the final ( see this article from ESPN Scrum last week
http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/152774.html )
and compare them to the rest of his RWC games for the tournament. After all, it was his previous performances that got him the gig.
In the end I'm just pleased that the French "turned up" and provided a competitive and fitting RWC Final for everyone. And again, congrats to RMC, Graham Henry and all involved in the ABs.
 

TNT88


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France were isolated all night and were pretty bad themselves at the breakdown. I don't know how anyone could suggest France would have been better off with a stricter ref. Plus, their goalkicking seemed off.

The laws could and should have been applied with more strictness, but the penalty count wouldn't swing much at all.
 

Dixie


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I am afraid this was not CJ's finest hour - but pressure does funny things to people. IMO, he has been the standout referee throughout 2011, and fully deserved this shot at the final. I can't say that anyone else would have done better, but Craig will, I'm sure, experience a strange mixture of relief, elation and disappointment.

The Fat: where's the :kowtow: emoticon? This will have to do. :clap:
 

Ricardowensleydale

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After the Wales/France semi-final the general concensus was that it wasn't the referee who caused Wales to lose and while I would agree that CJ has a disappointing game the best team won. I wanted a French victory but wasn't expecting one and was impressed by their performance. CJ was very generous to NZ with a few high tackles and around the breakdown but NZ have always been excellent at planning and playing right up to the edge of the laws. It was a better game than I had been expecting and, even allowing for gloating Kiwis, ended the world cup on a positive note.
 

Ian_Cook


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Well I didn't think he had the bad game that most of you are making out.

I would like someone to point out the elapsed time of these two alleged high tackles, because I saw only one that looked high, and when I looked at the replay, the first point of contact was the about half-way between elbow and shoulder, and it only looked high because the ball carrier lifted his elbow up when he tried to shrug off the tackle. EDIT: Just gone and looked at this. Woodcock was the tackler, and he didn't make any contact with the ball carrier other than where I said (half-way between elbow and shoulder). The French player lifted his arm up and ducked his head to the left. Woodcock didn't make any contact with the head at all. Joubert had a better view from his side and would have seen that.

Also, no-one has mentioned the Dusutoir try, scored after Rougerie walked up the side of a ruck and kicked the ball out of the All Black side. He was at least 2m offside when he did that. The Law says you much be BOUND in order to do what Rougerie did, and he clearly was not.
 
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uncle fester


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So why did Joubert wait until the 79th minute to penalise somebody for going off their feet at the ruck? It was happening all game.
 

Ian_Cook


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So why did Joubert wait until the 79th minute to penalise somebody for going off their feet at the ruck? It was happening all game.

Well at least he actually DID penalise in the 79th minute, unlike a certain referee in Cardiff in 2007, who failed to penalise over 17 obvious ruck infringements by the winning side for whole of the second 40 minutes.:booty:
 

Aphrodite007


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Also, did anyone else think Donald's penalty looked like it went wide? Maybe it was camera angle but I'd love to see it again.
 

The Fat


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So why did Joubert wait until the 79th minute to penalise somebody for going off their feet at the ruck? It was happening all game.

Like the one that ended Morgan Parra's night? Head and shoulders below the hips, plane landing, no arms or even an attempt to bind to the jackler???? Bit of Bakkies Botha method there although Bakkies actually leads with his granite melon. Technically not a ruck but watch the video and you'll get the drift.
 

soulphoenix

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The problem is not Joubert. I remember a time when players and referees understood the 'sense' of the rules; the rules made sense and gave advantages for certain athletic or strategic wins. Now ,for example, being isolated can lead to a penalty to the defending team far too easily. Players don't understand decisions and rightly question, referees feel under pressure and react emotionally. Frankly it's a shambles.

Who is responsible? One thing is for sure, it's not the players; I can't imagine a single rugby player in the world ever thinking that 'collapsing a maul' was ever going to be a good idea. How in heavens name does something like that go through??? More and more controlling behaviour from the refs (not just on the pitch) is not good for the game.

I see now even a full blown attack on the William Web Ellis mythology! Who cares whether it's true, it's part of our heritage and values, values which profess that the fundamental laws of the game should revolve around the idea that we as players know when we've infringed and don't have to guess or be dependent on the judgement of a single mind.

Consult with us players to simplify things; let's work this out before the role that refs play becomes a growing cancer within our brilliant game.
 

FKlopper

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Also, did anyone else think Donald's penalty looked like it went wide? Maybe it was camera angle but I'd love to see it again.

Donald kick.gif

Poor choice of camera angle but the ball just sneaks inside the upright (would have been surprised if the AR's had got that one wrong)
 

peperami

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Who is responsible? One thing is for sure, it's not the players; I can't imagine a single rugby player in the world ever thinking that 'collapsing a maul' was ever going to be a good idea. How in heavens name does something like that go through??? More and more controlling behaviour from the refs (not just on the pitch) is not good for the game.

Certainly not the referees as far as anyone I spoke too. Several high ups indicated that it was a decision for TV, specifically viewers who dont like the NH rollling maul.


I see now even a full blown attack on the William Web Ellis mythology! Who cares whether it's true, it's part of our heritage and values, values which profess that the fundamental laws of the game should revolve around the idea that we as players know when we've infringed and don't have to guess or be dependent on the judgement of a single mind.

If the players started by reading the current laws it would be a start. Like most sports including Soccer and Cricket the average player hasnt seen a law book for years if at all. They have established views based on how it was, how they were coached, how they think its refereed on tv etc.

Consult with us players to simplify things; let's work this out before the role that refs play becomes a growing cancer within our brilliant game.

One would hope that the governing bodies consult players as well as referees, coaches etc on the proposed law changes
 

uncle fester


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Well at least he actually DID penalise in the 79th minute, unlike a certain referee in Cardiff in 2007, who failed to penalise over 17 obvious ruck infringements by the winning side for whole of the second 40 minutes.:booty:
You are aware that the penalty I am referring to was against France?
 

Phil E


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I remember a time when players and referees understood the 'sense' of the rules; the rules made sense and gave advantages for certain athletic or strategic wins.

Referees don't make the laws, they just impliment them.

Now ,for example, being isolated can lead to a penalty to the defending team far too easily.

And so it should. Rugby is a team game, if you leave your team behind, or they can't keep up with your break, then the defense must be allowed to compete for the ball; and if the isolated player denies them the ball he should be penalised.

Players don't understand decisions and rightly question, referees feel under pressure and react emotionally.

Players sometimes make no effort to understand decision. As a referee I never feel under pressure or react emotionally; quite the opposite.

Who is responsible? One thing is for sure, it's not the players; I can't imagine a single rugby player in the world ever thinking that 'collapsing a maul' was ever going to be a good idea. How in heavens name does something like that go through??? More and more controlling behaviour from the refs (not just on the pitch) is not good for the game.

Not sure how you work out that it's the referees who pushed that particular ELV through?

I see now even a full blown attack on the William Web Ellis mythology! Who cares whether it's true, it's part of our heritage and values, values which profess that the fundamental laws of the game should revolve around the idea that we as players know when we've infringed and don't have to guess or be dependent on the judgement of a single mind.

When you say "we" you make it sound as though we referees were never players? It's not one man's mind, there are usually at least 15 players who agree with us :biggrin:

Consult with us players to simplify things; let's work this out before the role that refs play becomes a growing cancer within our brilliant game.

Referees constantly consult with players, unfortunately not all players want to learn.
 

the magpie


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Like the one that ended Morgan Parra's night? Head and shoulders below the hips, plane landing, no arms or even an attempt to bind to the jackler???? Bit of Bakkies Botha method there although Bakkies actually leads with his granite melon. Technically not a ruck but watch the video and you'll get the drift.

I actually took a still of it (below). There was a hand - a fist in Parra's face.

McCaw Dog Shot 1.jpg
 

soulphoenix

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If the players started by reading the current laws it would be a start. Like most sports including Soccer and Cricket the average player hasnt seen a law book for years if at all. They have established views based on how it was, how they were coached, how they think its refereed on tv etc.

I will choose to believe that you are not deliberately trying to be patronising, I would hate to be rude.

Other than that I'd say be careful what you wish for - 30 players on a pitch who can all quote law to you, clause and verse, might put you under a fair bit of pressure. Anyway, IMHO it's a ridiculous idea for any sport; from minis all the way through, games are taught by coaching not books. Imagine the participation fallout if we started giving everyone a book or should we ban enjoyment too?

As for TV being used as the scapegoats for dangerous law changes, well...
 

Ian_Cook


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You are aware that the penalty I am referring to was against France?

Yes, and it irrelevant!

And by the way, it was not the first time

NZ conceded 7 PKs
2 by Williams (not releasing ball, and going off his feet)
1 by McCaw once (playing the ball on the ground)
1 by Nonu (not releasing ball)
1 by Smith (side entry)
1 by Hore (going off his feet)
the other 1 was a scrum PK by Woodcock

France conceded 11 PKs

3 Dusutoir (2 x going off his feet, 1 x side entry)
1 Harinordiquay (going off his feet)
1 Szarzewski (not releasing tackled player)
1 Pallison (not releasing ball)
1 Parra (not releasing ball)
the other four were scrum PK's (2 x Poux, 1 x Servat, 1 x Mas)

So your statement that "Joubert waited until the 79th minute to penalise somebody for going off their feet at the ruck" is pure bollocks!

He in fact pinged players four times for that offence previously, 2 NZ, 2 France.
 

4eyesbetter


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I do wonder how people can actually have arguments about penalties for players going off their feet when everyone at every ruck was off their feet to some degree.
 
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