Kick ahead touched in-flight by opponent

[kaypeegee]

Can someone please help me with the following scenarios following a kick-ahead being touched in-flight e.g. an attempted charge down.

I am confused as I am sure I have heard referees shout “touched – all onside!” after a kick ahead has been touched in flight by opponents.

Having re-read the laws I am now confused.

LotG [iRB 2011 web]
11.3 Being put on-side by an opponent
11.3 (c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside

11.5 Being put on side under the 10-metre law
(f) The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball.
The opponent was not 'waiting to play the ball' and the team-mate is onside.
The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.


(i) Ball kicked ahead and touched in flight but not charged down. Team mates who are ahead of the kicker (and not offside under the 10m law) are put onside by the opponents touching the ball and can chase the kick?

(ii) Ball kicked ahead and charged down. Team mates from the kickers team is put onside by the charge down?

(iii) Ball kicked ahead and touched in flight but not charged down. Teamm mates who are ahead of the kicker and offside under the 10m law are not put onside by the opponents touching the ball. So they have to keep withdrawing from the player waiting to play the ball until they are 10m away?

Do team mates of the kicker in (i) who are put on side the by the opponents touching the ball have to stop 10m away from an opponent waiting to play the ball to avoid being offside under the 10m law?

 

[Taff]

I asked a similar question a few months ago, so have a quick search for the full length answer. I haven't got a chance to find it at the moment (I'm in work) but the gist of the answer was that all offside players were put onside by a part charged down kick apart from the ones within 10m of where the ball lands - because players who are offside under the 10m Law can't be put onside by an opponent.

So if the ball is part charged down, the chances are that some offside players will be put onside and some won't.

Who said life was easy eh?

 

[Phil E]

As I understand it a charge down or attempted charge down puts ALL the kickers team onside including the 10m lot. (11.4f).

The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges
down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre
line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not ‘waiting to play the ball’ and
the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an
opponent but is not charged down.

If the ball touches an opponent, but not as part of a charge down the kickers team EXCEPT the 10m lot are put onside. (11.3c)

 

[crossref]

the logic being that the 10m law addresses people hanging around where they they know the ball will land... after a charge down the ball goes in a random direction so no one can be blamed for ending up 10m from it.

 

[Ian_Cook]

AFAIK, in all circumstances where the ball kicked, then touched by an opponent of the kicker who is attempting to charge the kick down, everyone in the kicker's team is onside.

The only exception I can see to this is where a team-mate of the kicker heading "downtown" was ahead of the kick.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

AFAIK, in all circumstances where the ball kicked, then touched by an opponent of the kicker who is attempting to charge the kick down, everyone is onside.

The only exception I can see to this is where a team-mate of the kicker heading "downtown" was ahead of the kick.

I thought it is only the kicker's team who are on side otherwise if it were charged down (rather than just touched) a team mate of the "chargerdowner" could pick it up in front and that can't be right.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I thought it is only the kicker's team who are on side otherwise if it were charged down (rather than just touched) a team mate of the "chargerdowner" could pick it up in front and that can't be right.

Yep, your right. Thats what I intended to write.

Fixed

 

[chbg]

Define "charged down" in 11.4(f). Is it:
1. Any attempt to charge down that results in the ball being touched but essentially not deflected; or:
2. When that attempt actually reverses the ball's direction?

I believe 1, but would understand someone who interpreted it as 2. Should the '10-metre offside' player in scenario 1 be allowed to play the ball when the 'charge down' deflected its original path by merely a metre or so?

 

[Ian_Cook]

Define "charged down" in 11.4(f). Is it:
1. Any attempt to charge down that results in the ball being touched but essentially not deflected; or:
2. When that attempt actually reverses the ball's direction?

I believe 1, but would understand someone who interpreted it as 2. Should the '10-metre offside' player in scenario 1 be allowed to play the ball when the 'charge down' deflected its original path by merely a metre or so?

Any deflection of the ball, however slight (as long as it is detected by the referee of course) puts all the kicker's team-mates onside (apart from the exception I posted at #5).

LAW 11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.
(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.
(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.

In this country, the referee calls out "touched!" so that everyone knows the ball can be played and the 10m law doesn't apply.

 

[Taff]

I thought it is only the kicker's team who are on side otherwise if it were charged down (rather than just touched) a team mate of the "chargerdowner" could pick it up in front and that can't be right.

But it's only the kickers team that can be offside as they last played the ball. As I understand it, the charger isn't "playing the ball" so if he does manage to charge down the kick, a team mate in front of him could pick up the ball and run with it. :chin:

Any deflection of the ball, however slight (as long as it is detected by the referee of course) puts all the kicker's team-mates onside (apart from the exception I posted at #5).

In this country, the referee calls out "touched!" so that everyone knows the ball can be played and the 10m law doesn't apply.

But 11.3 says the 3 ways don't apply to the 10m law.

11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. ..
(b) Kicks or passes. ...
(c) Intentionally touches ball. ....

It hasn't happened to me yet, but I can imagine it being a nightmare to work out who it applies to and managing it.

 

[kaypeegee]

But 11.3 clearly says the 3 ways don't apply to the 10m law.

Yes I agree, but its the last sentence in 11.5(f) that is causing me the confusion. "The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an
opponent but is not charged down."

Exact situation happened in the Blues v Munster game last night. Ball touched in flight fom a kick, went up in the air, kickers teammates were in front to kicker and with-in 10m of where it was going to land. Ref played on. All kickers team mates on-side

This is entirely what I would have expected to happen

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Taff]

Yes I agree, but its the last sentence in 11.5(f) that is causing me the confusion. "The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down."

Exact situation happened in the Blues v Munster game last night. Ball touched in flight fom a kick, went up in the air, kickers teammates were in front to kicker and with-in 10m of where it was going to land. Ref played on. All kickers team mates on-side. This is entirely what I would have expected to happen.

And it is entirely what we have seen happen from U14s to full international games. In fact, it makes the refs job easier if it does happen as you described, but as I understand the wording 11.3 and 11.4 does say differently.

I've found the original thread ... HERE.

We've got a meeting Thursday night, I might bring it up and see what the "big boys" reckon we should do. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Yes I agree, but its the last sentence in 11.5(f) that is causing me the confusion. "The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down."

AIUI, if the "touch" is on a ball as its....

► on its way up from a kick, its a charge down so the 10m Law does not apply

► on its way down from a kick, its an attempt to catch so the 10m Law applies

At least that what I recall being taught.

 

[Phil E]

Kicked and charged down (or attempted charge down) ALL kickers team are onside.

If the ball is kicked and (for instance) hits a defender who is retreating, on the back of the head (not a chargedown), then that does not put the kickers 10m guys onside, only the kickers team who are not within 10m.

Edit: just read Ians comment: ► on its way down from a kick, its an attempt to catch so the 10m Law applies

But that would be where the ball is landing so 10m law applies all the time.

 

[Taff]

A succesful charge down isn't a problem - previously offside players are now onside under 11.3(c). The problem arises when there's a charge down attempt which only deflects the ball rather than stops it eg where it's touched in flight, but not enough to charge it down. I can't see that an attempted charge down (as above) can be treated as a succesful charge down, as 11.4(f) makes a differentiation between the two.

11.4(f) ... The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.

 

[kaypeegee]

AIUI, if the "touch" is on a ball as its....

► on its way up from a kick, its a charge down so the 10m Law does not apply

► on its way down from a kick, its an attempt to catch so the 10m Law applies

At least that what I recall being taught.

Ian
Thank you - now clear.
Kevin

 

[ddjamo]

I have in my mind that if the ball hits the charger and charger has no choice where the ball hits him - charged down. if the player has time to choose then it's an attempt at possession.

 

[Dickie E]

The only exception I can see to this is where a team-mate of the kicker heading "downtown" was ahead of the kick.

You're making that up :nono:

 

[ExHookah]

AIUI, if the "touch" is on a ball as its....

► on its way up from a kick, its a charge down so the 10m Law does not apply

► on its way down from a kick, its an attempt to catch so the 10m Law applies

At least that what I recall being taught.

That's a good way of looking at it.

I have in my mind that if the ball hits the charger and charger has no choice where the ball hits him - charged down. if the player has time to choose then it's an attempt at possession.

So is that, and is essentially the same thing.

 

[Taff]

AIUI, if the "touch" is on a ball as its....
► on its way up from a kick, its a charge down so the 10m Law does not apply
► on its way down from a kick, its an attempt to catch so the 10m Law applies

I did bring this up at the meeting, and as a result .... please ignore my previous post. Sorry gents.

The way it was explained to us was if the ball is on it's way up and "touched in flight" all the offside players are put onside, so you can forget the 10m Law.

I still think the wording in the lawbook is pants, but this explanation does make life slightly easier.